Long barreled Pistol

[bama]

Hopefully someone can shed some light on where this pistol may have been made. I got this in my shop to do a little work on it and I got the owners permission to post it. I thought you guys would enjoy looking at it if nothing else.

There are no markings on it that I can tell.

The barrel is smoothbore approx. 44 cal. Graduates from octagon to round and is 19 1/2" long. The breech end is held in place by the rear lock screw and the forearm is pinned with wooden tapered pins.

The rear thimble is held to the stock by a tapered wooden pin that appears to be original to the gun and never removed.

The locks internal bridal is held in position by a post and a sear screw. This is the first time I have seen this type of arrangement.

There is what appears to be a deer head carved into the fore stock and a leafy vine on the side plate panel.

Some think that this is a southern pistol and it may very well be. 

[Agent 006]

Brother Jim:
My kind of pistol.  Although Elmer Keith and would have preferred it in 6 guage.  I, too was struck with a southern feeling to the piece so I called our national treasure Jerry Noble and he suggested one consult One of Jim Whisker's recent "little books" on West Virginia gunmakers.  I don't own any of his recent efforts on West Virginia but he notes there is a picture in one of them showing a gunmaker seated on his front steps holding a flint rifle with similar features.  Claims Jerry it would be handy on the floor of a buggy in case one encountered game along the trail.  I noted it would readily get one a seat in a crowded bar.  Good luck in finding the Whisker text.  Perhaps others will chime in.
Jim

[smart dog]

Hi Bama,
My first impression is that it is a pistol cobbled together from various parts some of which are British military.  The lock bolts look like they came from a British Brunswick percussion rifle and the maker also used the bolt washers called Lovell cups.  The forward ramrod thimble is either a cut down forward thimble from a British rifle or musket, or the "Pratt" second thimble taken from a late model Brown Bess musket.  The shape of the stock suggests to me that it was made in Asia, maybe Pakistan or India with some surplus British military parts.  The carved deer head might be a chital or some other Asian mammal.

dave

[bama]

Thanks for the comments guys. I have no clue or guess. SD you may be correct about it being cobbled together from various parts, even so it was not put together without skill. Finding no ID or proofs on the barrel or lock I did not think it would be English. Of the middle eastern guns I have seen this does not strike me as being from that area. As far as Asia goes, I have no experience there so I can not speculate.

What made me think possibly american is the stock appears to me to be made from Black Walnut. I have worked a good bit with black walnut and the wood this pistol is stocked with has the same grain structure and color and smell of Black Walnut. Most English walnut that I have seen does not have the dark color of American Black Walnut or the smell. Then, I am no expert here either.

Regardless of where it was made it is a interesting piece and I hope you guys enjoyed looking at it.

[bama]

Jim, thanks for the heads up on Whisker's books. I will take a look at mine to see if anything is in one of them.

I got to thinking about the wooden pins. I have seen a number of American pieces that have had wooden pins or wedges. At the time I figured it was a quick field replacement for a lost pin or wedge.

[WadePatton]

Thanks for the comments guys.

..smell of Black Walnut. Most English walnut that I have seen does not have the dark color of American Black Walnut or the smell. Then, I am no expert here either.

...

Oh yes you are, at least for American Walnut.  I can ID many woods by smell alone, but i wouldn't be able to eliminate English Walnut.   And that's all i can say without exposing my dumbth WRT originals.

thanks for sharing.

[WElliott]

I am sure you fellows know a lot more than I do. But, having actually examined this pistol in person very carefully, it is my opinion, and also the opinion of Mr. Earl Lanning, that this pistol was probably made in the deep south of the USA. Likely for a member of the Creek or Cherokee Deer Clan. The Deer Clan were generally the keepers of the game as well as the messengers. Running or riding through the forest, a long barrel .45 caliber pistol may have made sense. And the use of either a sling or a lanyard would help keep from dropping the pistol. It is well made and the unusual deer head carving is well -executed.

Reading  some of the opinions posted above reminds me why I now hesitate to submit anything for comments by the experts who post on this board.
Wayne Elliott

[mr. no gold]

It could have been made by one of the Indian gun makers that are said to have worked in the southern tribes. Wish I could recall where I read this, but there was a Cherokee named Salola who made guns. This would fit the bill nicely for a native made gun.
Dick

[WElliott]

Dick, that is certainly a possibility. The pistol is out of the norm and shows artistic ability and sensitivity along with design for a unique purpose. The subtle relief carving of vines on the counterplate is nicely done. Salola, as I recall, was self taught but considered very skilled. I wish I knew of another pistol by him with solid provenance.

Another possibility is that it was made by a white gunsmith for a Deer Clan leader. Prominent and skilled southern white gunshots who worked in areas on the southern frontier (e.g., John Bull, Richard Allen, Wiley Higgins) are believed to have made guns to order for their Cherokee and Creek neighbors in the 19th century pre-removal period. Earl speculated that it was made in Georgia by a Higgins.

incidentally, my notes indicate that on the barrel at the breech are the letters "C N C K C" with the N and K backwards from standard.

[smart dog]

Hi Wayne,
Sorry if my comments disturbed you but not having had the pistol in hand or looked at good close up photos, I can only present first impressions.  However, what is not an "impression" is that the gun has "Lovell" cups (or a facsimilie of them) and likely screws from an English gun from the 1830s.  The forward pipe is also likely from a British gun, perhaps a bit earlier.  The maker reused parts from some other guns.

dave

[hawknknife]

Some of the comments remind me of the "Ole gun collector's adage", see what you see, not what you want to see.

[Collector]

This is like playing poker with a Pinochle deck of cards.  Interesting pistol, but there too few details in these photographs.  Which, leaves us with questions:

The 'deer' head presents as 'upside down' and 'backwards' to the way we typically expect to see it, were it anywhere else.  It's not so much a stand-alone carving but is adapted more to the function of the fore stock at a point that is near to accepting the ramrod.  With the brass eyes and antlers, it has an Algonquin 'mask' like appearance.  We can barely see half of the carving/art work.  A better photo  would probably help all of us.

Is the nose cap open or closed?

Does the front sling swivel also double as a barrel pin/key?  Given the pipe spacing, I think it does.

From the quality of the photo, the 'leafy vine' looks more like it was "pressed' than carved.  Regardless, it's worn virtually smooth and discernible by altering a light source across the surface. 

Are the 'vine leafs' generic in design, or can they identified as belonging to a specific plant species and/or region?   Artists are influenced by forms, designs and things that they are familiar with.

Does the design of the butt cap incorporate the swivel or does the swivel have a wood threaded post that penetrates the cap? 

More questions than answers, at the present, so I'm not predisposed to a conclusion, or an opinion.  The 'mask' and the 'vines' are intriguing features/details.

[Chuck Burrows]

Considering the popularity of the long barreled pistols known as pocket rifles beginning in the 1830's and smart dog's ID of possible 1830's parts perhaps this was a locally made product based on the same idea as the pocket rifles"

[bama]

Wayne my apologies for not being more clear about the markings, what I was trying to say was there was no name or proof marks on the barrel. I should have included a shot of the lettering.

I also thought that the ALR group would like to see the pistol but evidently I was wrong it was not not my intention to create a source of tension amongst the troops, it was merely to present what I think is an interesting piece.

We are supposed to be a brotherhood here, people with a like mind and a love for the American Longrifle.

I know that this piece is out of the norm and does not quite fit in the PA/KY box but that should not keep us from looking at the overall qualities and skill of the craftsmanship regardless of where it was made or by who.

Moderator my apologies and if you would be so kind, please remove this post.

[smart dog]

Hi John,
You have nothing to apologize for. 

dave

[JCKelly]

Bama, I like this pistol. While i have little or no knowledge here that never stops me from expressing an opinion. Think, like others, it is Southern. Don't even have an opinion on whether it is Indian. As far as the mix of parts, well, people used what they had reworking to fit the need at hand.(I did ~1959, wanted a pistol, used a modern round .45 barrel & a Miller Bedford lock, frizzen hardened over the local blacksmith's forge. Clearly I was not aware of styling) 

[WElliott]

Gentlemen. please accept my apologies if my earlier response was intemperate. I do appreciate the thoughtful comments all have made. We will probably never know the correct story about this, or other pieces that do not fit the norm or expectations. I was venting frustration, perhaps, about the practice we all engage in of venturing opinions based on a few photographs rather than personal, detailed examination. Unfortunately, that is a limitation inherent in online posts. Again, I am the only one who owes an apology here.
Wayne

[JTR]

Wayne,
No apology required here. I certainly respect your opinion and knowledge, and could have been more sensitive with my comments.

Best Regards, John

[Topknot]

Jim, Why cant people just take the pistol for what it is.... a long barreled pistol that one of our southern fore fathers built to fill the need.
 Yes, its probably built from spare parts the gunsmith had on hand, so be it. I personally like it . IT definately shows that the smith had skills. Some people like to try to put every gun they see in the proper school. Down here in the south ,Im sure that the proper school it fit in didnt worry the smith any. It was a pistol built to fill a need. Personally I like it.

                                                                                    topknot

                                                 

[Sequatchie Rifle]

Thanks for sharing the description and photos of this unique piece.  I always look forward to the input from the members who have alot of knowledge and experience to share.  I especially look forward to hearing about southern-made guns, as there are few quality references available.