Author Topic: Hooked breech conundrum  (Read 6722 times)

Offline Ezra

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Hooked breech conundrum
« on: February 11, 2009, 03:15:35 AM »
Who invented the hooked breech and when?


Ez
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roundball

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Re: Hooked breech conundrum
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2009, 04:28:55 AM »
Who invented the hooked breech and when?
Ez
Well, lets start closing in on part of it...we at least know it was in existence as early as 1787 because Nock's Patent Breech was invented then and it's shown in a hooked breechplug configuration.

Offline Brian

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Re: Hooked breech conundrum
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2009, 05:02:24 AM »
Man, I'm not sure - so now will have to start going through my books.  Didn't Verner have one that was pretty early?  As a matter of fact, "THE" Verner rifle had a hooked breech didn't it?  So that dates it to then, and I suspect a lot earlier by "somebody or another".

I've often thought about doing a hooked breech, but finding a barrel smith who will do one is difficult.

A lot of discussion on the hooked breech.  There are those who say it is "inaccurate" because it is loose and nothing ever lines up quite the same way.  On the other hand, to those that shoot like me, what difference does it make?  If you move the impact a half an inch this way or that at 50 yards  - the way I shoot - who the heck cares?  Big deal!

If somebody put out a quality hooked breech barrel I'd buy one in a second.
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Online James Rogers

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Re: Hooked breech conundrum
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2009, 05:17:33 AM »
It's use in France by 1722 is proved by a dated double gun by Chasteau of Paris....

An English piece dating circa 1730-35 has a hook breech system exactly like the earlier Chasteau gun.

They both have an extended cover under which the barrel fits, thereby concealing the actual junction between barrel and false breech.


Info. From Great British Gunmakers 1740-1790 , Neal and Back

roundball

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Re: Hooked breech conundrum
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2009, 05:44:28 AM »

I've often thought about doing a hooked breech, but finding a barrel smith who will do one is difficult.

If somebody put out a quality hooked breech barrel I'd buy one in a second.


TOW recommended this place for custom breeches:

http://cap-n-ball.com/McC/index.htm


Offline Dphariss

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Re: Hooked breech conundrum
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2009, 05:48:38 PM »
Man, I'm not sure - so now will have to start going through my books.  Didn't Verner have one that was pretty early?  As a matter of fact, "THE" Verner rifle had a hooked breech didn't it?  So that dates it to then, and I suspect a lot earlier by "somebody or another".

I've often thought about doing a hooked breech, but finding a barrel smith who will do one is difficult.

A lot of discussion on the hooked breech.  There are those who say it is "inaccurate" because it is loose and nothing ever lines up quite the same way.  On the other hand, to those that shoot like me, what difference does it make?  If you move the impact a half an inch this way or that at 50 yards  - the way I shoot - who the heck cares?  Big deal!

If somebody put out a quality hooked breech barrel I'd buy one in a second.

A simple hooked breech is not that tough.
Patent breeches can be more difficult.
Basically if you want something nobody makes you make it yourself.
If making a plain flint with a hooked breech just file a hook on the breech plug and make the standing breech. If you make the standing breech in 2 peices, fit the vertical part to the hook and then weld on a tang its pretty easy. But like all such things it will be a learning experience.
Just make the hook substantial and fit the plug *well* first and do not over tighten so the hook can be used to install and remove without damaging the hook. Leave enough metal to make a good hook from. One can be made from a bolt with the head used as a *lump* to form the hook from. You can also round stock but its easier with a lathe.
A large commercial breechplug, one for a 1 1/8" barrel should have enough metal for a hook to be formed. It needs to be pretty wide so a plug for a small barrel will not be big enough.
Patent breeches need a lot more work. But can be done with a file and a drill press.

Dan
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Offline Brian

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Re: Hooked breech conundrum
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2009, 06:12:54 PM »
Dan - I must admit I never considered welding, and that is a possibility.  I was thinking in terms of lathes and milling machines and so forth.  None of which I have.  Mind you, neither did Verner.  Guess I was approaching the problem from a lazy man's point of view.

Now you have me thinking.
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northmn

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Re: Hooked breech conundrum
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2009, 06:53:48 PM »
I do not have a lathe or machine shop but do weld.  I have been making my own breech plugs since the days I started building and Douglas was the best offered.  You had to index the breech plug so that ideally the Douglas name was on the bottom, unless you wanted people to think someone named Douglas built the gun.  It was about as easy to to cut out a fine thread hardware store bolt and weld on the tang as it was to try to get a premade Plug to index.  A flint hooked breech could be made fairly easily with an angle iron tang cut out using this method.  In a flintlock I never really had a need for a hooked breech. I use a tang screw that screws in to the trigger plate and take off the lock for a good cleaning anyway.   Normally I just stick a round toothpick in the vent and leave the barrel in the stock.  I can see more use for a hooked breech on a capgun.  Each to his own.

DP

Offline Darkhorse

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Re: Hooked breech conundrum
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2009, 07:23:45 PM »
I'm with Northman on this. Why go to all the trouble of a hooked breech with a flintlock when you can use wedges for the forend and remove the tang screw from the rear.
Probably takes about 1 minute longer.
I don't shoot hooked breeches and wedges anymore but I remember when I did and it sure was easier to clean than leaving the barrel in the stock. In fact there is another plus to this; The bottom of the barrel. When you remove it you can dry any water off of it rather than it getting down between the barrel and a tight stock. Takes a long time to dry and leaves rust.
Sometimes I think its faster to remove the tang screw and barrel pins than to leave the barrel in the stock.
So....I'm thinking about my next hunting rifle. Maybe it will have wedges instead of pins. And a tang screw. If I bugger up the slot I can replace the screw for a couple of bucks.
And just maybe; A wedge under the tang instead of a tang screw and use a wood screw for the trigger plate.   Just thinking......
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tg

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Re: Hooked breech conundrum
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2009, 08:18:40 PM »
There is a drawing of one in Diterots encyclopidia circa mid 18th century it looks like the veny may be in the barrel and that hooks into the mating piece in the stock probably not a true Pattent type

caliber45

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Re: Hooked breech conundrum
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2009, 08:54:09 PM »
Brian -- I, too, have lamented the dearth of hooked breech offerings -- particularly for the 13/16th-inch barrels I like to use for "carbines." I have begun making my own, and they seem to work nicely. The tang (female) portion is a 3/4ths-inch section of leftover barrel scrap, with the tang made of hardware store strap steel welded to it. The breech plug is made from hardware store bolts, with the "hook" (not really a hook) portion turned on my small lathe to match the bore size of the barrel section. The tang holds the rear of the barrel in place, and the wedge (I build half-stocks) holds it snug against the tang. Have noted no loss of accuracy despite warning from some that I might. Makes barrel cleaning a joy, and keeps my wood dry. - paulallen