Author Topic: Levels of finish with scrapers  (Read 10767 times)

Offline E.vonAschwege

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Levels of finish with scrapers
« on: September 14, 2014, 09:54:03 PM »
This is in response to another topic where the question was raised about what an acceptable level of finish is for scraped stocks.   Everyone has different ideas of what a "finished" surface should look like, so this is just my opinion.  I think contemporary makers usually produce guns with a much higher level of finish than was originally produced on American guns.  That doesn't mean we should accept sloppy workmanship or leave our stocks loaded with tool marks, but I think a degree of texture in the wood adds a great tactile feel and looks very authentic as well.  Here are a few pictures that show what I feel is an acceptable level of finish for scrapers on an American gun.  If we go into European stuff then this all goes out the window (mostly).  You can see the slight scraper marks where the light has reflected.  There are slight ridges going the direction of the tool, and there are subtle perpendicular ridges that follow the flow of the curl (the photos heavily exaggerate this effect).  Scrapers can leave a substantially rougher texture, or they can leave almost perfectly smooth stocks as well.  There's no "right" way to do it, this is just what I like. 
-Eric





« Last Edit: February 10, 2023, 02:32:53 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline alex e.

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Re: Levels of finish with scrapers
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2014, 10:48:49 PM »
I find nothing to argue about with what you said.. Only thing being that one individuals skill set might be different than another's when using a scraper. It takes a little practice. I have seen some original's that were so roughly scraped,that if you did that today to' a gun ,you'd never be able to sell it.
To me,'scraping' gives the 'hand made' look. Which I like. Others tastes may vary.
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Offline smallpatch

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Re: Levels of finish with scrapers
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2014, 01:02:44 AM »
Eric,
I have gone strictly to scraping.  I just love the texture of the curl that scrapers give.  They appear warm and alive rather than just the flat "plastic" look of a totally smooth finish. Especially the finely figured wood.  You can feel it almost, rather than see it.
I truly believe that original American longrifles, in their "new" state would have appeared more this way.
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Levels of finish with scrapers
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2014, 03:01:11 AM »
I don't  believe the average to typical European arm was finished to any greater degree in consideration of the physical wood surface.  The primary difference, in my experience, is the higher level of finish build and harder (more brittle) level of finish development.  This is seen comparably in stringed musical instruments, whereupon the physcial surface of the wood is finished fairly coarsely but the high level of skill and effort spent upon developing a smooth *finish* essentially masks the coarse underlying wood surface.  Think of it like spackling a piece of drywall.  The coarser degree of topcoat finish relative to American arms creates the impression of a coarser wood finish due to the fact that the American arm will place the wood finish more initimately in contact with the end user, but in reality the underlying wood surfaces are very comparable.  Basically, the American arms relied upon a predominance of straight oil finishes - and fairly thin ones at that - while the European arms typically were coated in a more highly refined varnish of a harder nature, over multiple rubbed coatings much like musical insruments, which creates the illusion of a more refined wood surface.  Illusion!  Of course you see this more highly refined surface on some American arms, i.e. the Kuntz pieces and later 'violin finish' pieces (many of which originated in the Northampton/Bucks/Phila. quadrant) but all generally much later Federal era work.  Early arms, well pretty much all of them have been refinished and buggered anyway so who knows. 
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Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Levels of finish with scrapers
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2014, 04:40:56 AM »
Young Eric (as opposed to Eric K (Old Eric?)),

It is hard to really tell your level of finish from just the photos.   That said,  I usually get a little smoother finish (fewer/smaller ripples) than what you show around the lock panels and lower forearm.    However,  a lot depends on the figure of the wood.    I have been able to smooth out ripples by holding my scrapers at about 45 degrees to the curl, but there are places that you just can't get the scraper at the right angle and there is wood that absolutely refuses to be cut or scraped without tear out.   You do have to scrape in the right direction and it changes halfway down the stock.  Additionally,  I use Jerry Fisher scrapers to shape the lock panels and I believe their thickness and small diameters gives me a better result.   


Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Levels of finish with scrapers
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2014, 05:05:06 AM »
#@!! $#@* I'm so freakin OOOOLLLLLLLDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think the key here is constantly varying the scraper angle.  Just like all these !@*%&@ dirt roads - constant working to the same degree/direction leads to a washboard, which can be cool if desired.  But not always desired.  You have to approach the scraping at constantly varying angles.  However, terms of American work, I don;t think this was much of an issue because there are an awful lot of pieces out there that are washboarded all to $#*! and it sure isn't interim wear.

Call me simplistic but my favorite scraper is one of those weird curly ones that all the woodworking stores sell.  You know, looks like a Dr. Seuss 'who' head.  I use two, one with a chisel edge filed around it for rough scraping and one burnished in traditional style for finish scraping.  You can hit pretty much any surface of a rifle with one of those things.
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Offline E.vonAschwege

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Re: Levels of finish with scrapers
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2014, 06:03:43 AM »
#@!! $#@* I'm so freakin OOOOLLLLLLLDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Call me simplistic but my favorite scraper is one of those weird curly ones that all the woodworking stores sell.  You know, looks like a Dr. Seuss 'who' head.  I use two, one with a chisel edge filed around it for rough scraping and one burnished in traditional style for finish scraping.  You can hit pretty much any surface of a rifle with one of those things.

So long as you're aging like fine wine instead of old cheese....

Woodcraft calls it their "schmoo", also known as the blob, kidney shape, whatever you like.  That's my scraper of choice as well, one in thick (.05ish) and the other is about half that.  They do 99% of my work.  I agree that altering the angle counts for a lot - as you work it you can switch from 90* to 45* one way, 45* the other way, etc.  Sometimes the wood just wants to do its own thing too. 
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Offline David Rase

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Re: Levels of finish with scrapers
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2014, 06:11:38 AM »
A couple of months ago, well maybe more than a couple, Steve Skillman gave me a couple of pieces of industrial band saw blade to make a couple of knifes out of.  I made a knife a while back out of one piece and have been moving the other saw blade around from bench to bench just to get it out of my way.  I even tried to give the piece to a friend so he could make a knife for himself.  This past Friday I could not locate my "go to" scraper, no, not "schmoo" so I squared up the edge on the saw blade and it was one of the most wonderful scrapers I have ever used.  Now I got to talk Steve out of a few more pieces for those odd shaped you always need.
David

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Levels of finish with scrapers
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2014, 06:28:42 AM »
#@!! $#@* I'm so freakin OOOOLLLLLLLDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

... like fine wine instead of old cheese....

Woodcraft calls it their "schmoo", also known as the blob, kidney shape, whatever you like.  That's my scraper of choice as well...

you do want aged cheese with that fine wine! 


NOW that we're talking scrapers and the shapes thereof, I'm trying to grind out my own from some free high-carbon stock.  I do really like all the stock work that i can do with scrapers,  I've been using "things at hand" so far including: stainless kitchen tool thingy with a nickle-sized rounded end, squared up flat washer (large and overly thick), bits of steel banding, utility razor blades, broken glass-curved and flat.

 Are yous folks all satisfied with the commercial shapes or might you cut one out in some other design?  THANKS for input.

Also, the flat glass just came into the shop and i just learned myself to cut it.  This should give more durable and predictable edges than the smash-n-hope method. 

Next two stocks are Ash and Walnut and methinks they'll be markedly different, but i may leave them scraped.


oh, but this has been discussed b4.  Mark says:

Here is a picture of the scrapers I mentioned previously for those who asked.


« Last Edit: February 10, 2023, 02:33:55 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline Kermit

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Re: Levels of finish with scrapers
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2014, 06:53:20 AM »
When I've had furniture elements to scrape and the commercial scrapers are limited, especially concave curves, I wrap a wine bottle or two in an old towel and give it a few whacks. A surprising variety of curved scrapers result. Masking tape on the edges pointed at fingers helps keep the blood under the operators skin.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline smart dog

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Re: Levels of finish with scrapers
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2014, 04:02:08 PM »
Hi,
I second Mark Elliot's mention of Jerry Fischer scrapers, which I believe I got from Brownells a long time ago.  They fit in your hand more like a pencil giving you good control and clearance around details.  They are also fairly thick and stout.  That helps cut through tough wood, provided you keep them sharp.  The small round Fischer scraper is ideal for the lock panel area that Eric vonA shows in the photo.  For flatter surfaces, I find that carpet scraper blades work fabulously, a tip from Allen Martin.  Another favorite is my standard "French curve" wood scraper.  My small flat Fischer, small round Fischer, carpet, and French curve, scrapers are pretty much all I use these days.

dave
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Levels of finish with scrapers
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2014, 04:07:50 PM »
When I've had furniture elements to scrape and the commercial scrapers are limited, especially concave curves, I wrap a wine bottle or two in an old towel and give it a few whacks. A surprising variety of curved scrapers result. Masking tape on the edges pointed at fingers helps keep the blood under the operators skin.

Gass scrapers are a first class PITA. They chip they break I learned of them from MB when I was a kid and used them to scrap ramrods.  
Its a lot easier and safer to just make a scraper from steel it allows better control of the contour. And they don't break or chip leaving tiny beyond razor sharp flakes of glass around.

Dan
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Offline Kermit

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Re: Levels of finish with scrapers
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2014, 05:36:41 PM »
You're totally right, Dan. Steel scrapers are easy enough to make. Glass works, but with the issues you mention. They're just quick and dirty. Sometimes bloody.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline Cory Joe Stewart

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Re: Levels of finish with scrapers
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2014, 05:43:54 PM »
If it is me this whole process can be bloody. 

Good information.  Thanks everyone.

Coryjoe

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Levels of finish with scrapers
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2014, 05:55:54 PM »

Here are the two sets I use most often.  The left side are standard thickness, and are great for material removal.  The right set is about half as thick.  They are great for detail and final finish.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2023, 02:34:22 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline Ben Quearry

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Re: Levels of finish with scrapers
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2014, 06:41:07 PM »
I purchased a really nice set of 12 tiny scrapers from Richard Miller on the back porch of Gunmaker's Hall at Friendship Saturday. They are going to be very useful around the lock and carved areas. From what I've seen so far playing around with them I can get a beautiful finish in areas that could not be finished with any other means, at least not as easily as Dick's scrapers make it.

Ben

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Levels of finish with scrapers
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2014, 07:00:24 PM »
This is my third attempt at adding to the discussion of the poorly scraped and washboarded stocks. Between  the computer an me its been a trial... ::)  I nearly gave up knowing that its likely going to be about as popular as a lead balloon. Nor is this aimed at anyone in particular but the general cult of low quality finishes in general.  But it needs to be said so here goes.
In order to produce a rough finish one must either have a lack of understanding of tool use or one must  intentionally be making it it rough because someone thinks its "cool".  I freely admit that I have limited access to originals here and thus my exposure is limited. I do know of a JP Beck smooth rifle with a smoother finish in the patchbox cavity than I see on some of the intentionally roughed finishes I see on the outside of some modern reproductions. So SOMEONE in Beck's shop was concerned with wood finish in this late rifle, probably circa 1800-1805 by the lock mortise shape and panel shape. Given this how do we justify rough EXTERIORS?
While I HAVE seen scraper marks sometimes pretty obvious marks I do not believe they would have been common on a Beck or an Armstrong WHEN IT CAME FROM THE MAKER. The Bettis rifle I had in hand for a week or two is an example. It was a sound working rifle of the 1870s +- finished with a common brown varnish. It had a lot of scraper marks from a rough sharpened scraper but it had no "flats" or "whoop-de-doos" that I recall. Just scraper marks. Had the scrapers been stoned smooth rather than filed then burnished,  it would have been hard to tell it was scraped. Note the tiny "scratches" at the left side between the lock panel and the TG.

Then more apparent here.

But there is no "whoop-de-doos" with the curl being "proud". Someone know how to scrape curly wood.
Here is a piece of figured walnut I have been scraping mostly with chisels, gouges and scrapers and in fact went to the shop yesterday about 6 and did a little more with my large "roughing" scraper "sharpened" with a mill file and then burnished for a cutting edge. This was in bright sun from the side to show the tiny ridges. Very much like some shown on the Bettis rifle.

I normally run the edges of a scraper on a stone but was rough shaping this thing and just filed it and burnished it and I got "teeth" just like Bettis did.
This is what it looks like with a flash showing the figure.


If I put the scraper to the work improperly I can feel it running over the curl but if angled a little it goes away and leaves a flat finish. This scraper is made from a large "putty" knife used to apply sheet rock compound. Getting the plastic coating off was a PITA but its really cuts nice and is large enough for both hands. Compared to some of the scraped stocks I see on reproductions this is ready for finish. I do my best not to work to the low end of a standard. Nor have the people I work for been indoctrinated to accept it.

If the scraper is sharp and smooth there is no mark left behind like this one cutting hard maple to refine a paneled toe.


Its not quite as shiny as a cut with a sharp chisel or gouge its still smooth. .

Nor do I see Bettis like marks on photos of European guns other than perhaps those vandalized in one way or another.
So we might ask; "How come?"  Simple. They had standards. The guild would not accept just anyone as an apprentice. If the prospect met all qualifications but had no talent they rejected him in the probation period.  However, in America anyone could be a "gunsmith" or more aptly a "parts assembler" as many of us are in comparison to someone ranked as Journeyman in the German guild for example.  I used to work for a man who was apprenticed as a Machinist in Germany in the 1940s. He told me that the apprentices were given instruction and a file and a small sawn block of steel. The task was to make a cube. A perfect cube. German Machinist perfect.  Wolf told me some of them got pretty small before becoming a cube. THEN they were to make a perfectly centered perfectly square hole in the cube. Ge this done and you can progress with your other training...

I suspect the guild for gunmakers was pretty rigorous too. It was a good trade and the masters were not going to have any slop artists dragging down THEIR reputation.
This is the place the first German Gunsmiths in America came from. Some may have been doomed to be Journeyman level all their lives since either there was no room for more masters, according to the masters, or they were not skilled or ambitious enough.
Then we come to America.
No guild, no "controlling authority" so anyone with the inclination can set up shop. Gunsmiths being paid to take on Apprentices can take virtually anyone as an apprentice and given that many were often short of money and did a lot of barter some cash may have resulted in some marginal apprentices being "trained" by perhaps less than qualified "masters". Then we have blacksmiths with some wood working ability, its not rocket science after all but without any training as to how to properly shape or even lay out a gunstock properly, what is the outcome?  There are a lot of Kentucky rifles out there that show this. So we need to be careful in what rifles we choose to use as a guide.
Then we have economic conditions either endemic in some areas or the result of down turns in the economy for what ever reason. THEN owner modifications and additions, like someone who learned to scrape and burnish (bone) while in the Military. This was apparently fairly common make work for garrison troops. Now this guy comes home and turns his newly acquired "skill" loose on grandads old Kentucky and burnishes the dickens out of the curly maple stock giving is a wonderful washboard effect that would have perhaps enraged the original maker.  Hey it worked great on the straight grained walnut on the Musket....
 THEN people today look at this work, something like the Bettis rifle, which in all honesty with its mistakes and rough finish is still a perfectly functional working rifle made by someone at a time when all art in the Kentucky was dead and they were made as a low cost firearm for farmers or people of low income who still needed a working rifle. This does not negate the idea that they were made somewhat crudely both in form and workmanship compared to a Beck or a Armstrong and number of other makers in America both before and after the Federal period. Are they correct for what they are. Of course. But to take the workmanship displayed in rifles made in depressed areas, some makers who moved to Kentucky, for example, had to change the rifles they made to fit the area they were now living and working in. This from a class and conversations with a long time friend who has studied this extensively.
The ERROR comes we start to DEGRADE the appearance and quality of Golden Age guns that have all the bells and whistles but then the maker fails in doing the relatively easy final work to smooth the finish and properly final scrape and then burnish PROPERLY the stained and oiled wood to give a smooth finish.
Now one can leave the wood somewhat rough, stain if need be and then varnish. HOWEVER, if the first coat is thinned, especially on Walnut, a TRADITIONAL oil varnish will impart color to the wood in the first few days or week after applications. IE as the stock finish cures it adds to and enhances the color of Walnut. If the stock is left too rough then we end up with a lot of visible tool marks that can be seen right through a varnish coating even if it levels and smooths the surface. Staining will also bring these out.
Remembering that the originals were not finished with a virtually colorless synthetic finish might help in conceptualizing  what I am trying to explain.
I wold point out the Bettis did not use sandpaper though he had it. Probably cost too much. Did he ever use it? Could not say.

Finally. If the scraper is carefully sharpened and properly used errors in wood finish will be rare. This gives a smooth enough finish that a common brown varnish, American Gunsmiths did not use commonly really hard to combine and expensive resins in the gunstock varnish and from the looks of surviving guns I am not sure the Europeans did as common practice either. Many of these, as used on musical instruments were often very hard to combine with oil requiring so much heat that any small mistake in temperature control would ruin the batch.  So gunmakers  used low cost/low temp resins for the most part that made a better gunstock varnish anyway. But the heating required in the making varnish ALWAYS darkens it. Unless its done in a vacuum and I cannot see Dickert or Beck making stock finish is a vacuum retort. So the traditional boiled oil and oil varnishes were DARK.  Stand oil at the time was VERY labor intensive to make and keep clear and simply cost too much for the gunsmith to use so they did not use stand oil and even if they DID use it as a varnish base it would darken when made into a varnish. So clear finishes even spirit varnishes, were not used.  But people have been indoctrinated in their use by people that frankly should have known better, and probably did, but money got in the way. So easy trumped traditional and proper as a result a lot of people are not using the right finish or stain and in fact some, based on posts here in the past, are almost fanatical in rejecting them out of hand.
So when someone tells me smooth finishes are too "flat" I have to wonder what plastic is being used for a stock finish. Many of these are notorious for making a nice piece of wood look like it was painted (this from a friend with quite a bit of experience as well working for a place that turned out a lot of wood stocked guns some years back.
I would also point out that even industrial revolution guns like Sharps and Ballards with a more colorless oil varnish will show brush or even skin imperfections of the person that put it on. These were not "dunked and dried" since there is NO finish anywhere but the exterior of the stock and this was before paint sprayers were common. Most were soft elastic varnishes as shown on surviving "minty" guns...
I will be watching for the raiding party.... ;D

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Levels of finish with scrapers
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2014, 07:01:16 PM »
You're totally right, Dan. Steel scrapers are easy enough to make. Glass works, but with the issues you mention. They're just quick and dirty. Sometimes bloody.

Not to mention how hard "Gass" is to find ::)

Dan
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Levels of finish with scrapers
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2014, 08:52:03 PM »
I try to make a scraped surface that is nice and smooth, without purposeful ridges or facets. That said, ridges and tool marks happen, and one might not get them all out. The later stages of finishing and burnishing eliminate many of these marks, and handling the gun continues to soften the finish.



I'm trying to produce the best finish I can without sandpaper. I like a hand-finished gun, one that looks hand finished. This does not mean crude, but you can see that a skilled human did the finishing, not a bowling alley glossy glass-smooth varnish sprayed job.

Steel scrapers work just fine; they can be shaped easily, and are easy to make. Top center is a collection of mini scrapers for in and around carving primarily, but I use them for inletting and shaping.

« Last Edit: February 10, 2023, 02:35:29 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Levels of finish with scrapers
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2014, 09:01:52 PM »
Keep your eyes peeled Dan, we're coming to get ya.  :D
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Offline E.vonAschwege

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Re: Levels of finish with scrapers
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2014, 10:07:39 PM »
No raiding party from me Dan!

Patchbox interiors as well as entire exterior finishes on originals is a tricky subject - some patchbox interiors are really stinking rough while others as you note with that Beck are very well done.  It also varies by region what appears to be the level of acceptable finish and texture on originals.  Thanks for sharing the images of the scraper marks on the antique, again showing the difference in quality that can be achieved in how you sharpen and use the tool. 

Rifles with their original finish intact may be somewhat of a rarity - there are a couple now on the Julia auction that look bright and clean as the day they left the shop, but that in itself makes me question them; why isn't the finish darker?  There's a Bonewitz I'm aware of that has the most washboarded scraped stock I've ever seen - scraping right over the carving, ridges from the figure gouged in by course scraping - surely it was cleaned up by some hack who didn't know any better a very long time ago.  It's still a beautiful antique gun, but I'd cringe if anyone were to present a contemporary rifle with such texture. 

200 years of handling, applying new oil, and wearing through layers of finish, have all acted to heavily smooth out the surface of the wood - when we see carving that is nearly worn away, we can't possibly use the gun as an example of what a period level of finish would be. 

As I said earlier, I selected photos where the light heavily exaggerated the texture left by scrapers.  There was virtually no washboarding in the Beck, and the area ahead of the lock panels was perfectly smooth (no lumps) - smooth that is, but not glassy or sanded.  Unfortunately I don't have any good photos from before I finished the piece. 
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Levels of finish with scrapers
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2014, 11:58:32 PM »
Some wood develops washboard over the years. Some stocks I've scraped dead flat are starting to show some ripples. Maybe it's because the wood is air dried? Anyway, wood keeps moving no matter what you do.
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Levels of finish with scrapers
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2014, 12:36:27 AM »
This is my third attempt at adding to the discussion of the poorly scraped and washboarded stocks. ... Nor is this aimed at anyone in particular but the general cult of low quality finishes in general.  But it needs to be said so here goes.
...
Dan

Thanks Dan, I always like to hear your version of the topic.


As i'm working with more "hillbilly" school guns, don't stick to me at all  ;).  Also doesn't age often bring out more "dips and dos" via shrinkage?

Oh wait, Tom mentioned that^ right there over me.

==also thanks for the shapely pics :P
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 12:44:03 AM by WadePatton »
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Levels of finish with scrapers
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2014, 01:23:15 AM »
Some wood develops washboard over the years. Some stocks I've scraped dead flat are starting to show some ripples. Maybe it's because the wood is air dried? Anyway, wood keeps moving no matter what you do.

Wood is wood and seems to keep on living even after its "dead" and made into a gunstock.
I had Dave Rase run a barrel channel for me after out Guild Fair last year (very nice job BTW). He took it home, cut the channel in a couple of weeks but did not ship it back right away. Given his Puget Sound location it picked up water from the air. When I got it, and it had been in Montana for probably 2 years at least, the barrel channel was so loose it would need a "C" weight to make a fit. I set it aside and in a month or two it had shrunk back to fit. Now I think I will need to scrape it to fit. All the movement seems to have been across the stock though it think it got a little longer too during its west coast stay. This happened to another guild member a couple of years ago. Had I put a C weight in this stock as soon as I got it back I could not have gotten it out in a couple of weeks.
Using wood from the east right away is a mistake since it going the change so starting a precarve as soon as it arrives can be a mistake.
Taking a gun fitted in a dry climate to someplace like Anchorage AK, as did with a Sharps I built, then back in a couple of years will result in small (in this case), uniform gaps in the inletting when the stock dries out again since the wood gets compressed against the metal as it swells. When it shrinks back, gaposis.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

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Re: Levels of finish with scrapers
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2014, 02:04:23 AM »
Hi,
Dan, please post more of your work so we can see for ourselves.  I thought the following link might be of interest.

http://anthonyhaycabinetmaker.wordpress.com/2012/02/26/yes-virginia-there-really-is-sandpaper-in-1775/

dave
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