Author Topic: Hello from a new member  (Read 8781 times)

MMA10mm

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Hello from a new member
« on: September 14, 2014, 10:33:46 PM »
Just wanted to say hello and thank everyone for the collective knowledge here.  I am in for a heaping helping of reading I see already...

As an intro, let me say that, short of some cowboy ("action," though I don't like that word) shooting here and there and some Civil War reenacting I did 25-30 years ago, I do not have a great deal of black powder experience, and none at all with flintlocks.  Hope to change that soon. 

In my genealogical searching, I recently learned I am a direct descendent of a Massachusetts militiaman.  I've also been reading a lot about my family's history from 1600s & 1700s CT and MA to their settling in NE Pennsylvania in 1793, where they stayed until the 1850s.

My interest in shooting is now crossing over to my heritage, so I'm very interested in learning about and eventually acquiring an historically-consistent rifle to what they'd have possessed and used in those times.  Please bear with me, as I'm sure to have questions...

Offline Candle Snuffer

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Re: Hello from a new member
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2014, 11:10:31 PM »
Welcome MMA10mm.  You've come to the right place for accurate information on the good ol' reliable flintlock. Its history, use, and historically correct build for the time period you seek.  :)
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Offline moleeyes36

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Re: Hello from a new member
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2014, 11:16:08 PM »
...In my genealogical searching, I recently learned I am a direct descendent of a Massachusetts militiaman.  I've also been reading a lot about my family's history from 1600s & 1700s CT and MA to their settling in NE Pennsylvania in 1793, where they stayed until the 1850s.

My interest in shooting is now crossing over to my heritage, so I'm very interested in learning about and eventually acquiring an historically-consistent rifle to what they'd have possessed and used in those times.  Please bear with me, as I'm sure to have questions...

Welcome to the forum.

If you're interested in purchasing or building a gun that is historically consistent with your heritage, you certainly need to decide what part of your heritage you want to focus on.  The chronological boundaries of 1600's to 1850's and the geographical boundaries of CT, MA and NE Pennsylvania leave it open to a whole host of different types of guns.  Do some research on the different types of guns that were used in those areas and in the different time periods to help you narrow things down and go from there.

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Offline Collector

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Re: Hello from a new member
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2014, 12:08:48 AM »
Welcome to the forum!!

You're gonna need a bunch of books...  ;D  well, a few, anyway, as you get deeper into this topic.  ;)

Good luck !! 

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Hello from a new member
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2014, 01:07:49 AM »
Just wanted to say hello...1600s & 1700s CT and MA to their settling in NE Pennsylvania in 1793, where they stayed until the 1850s...acquiring an historically-consistent rifle to what they'd have possessed and used in those times.  

200 year window covers a lot of stuff.  Here's a really crude quick breakdown:  Early/militia will be larger in bore (smooth), big lock, medium length bbl, strong Euro influence.  Later guns get more Americanized with rifling generally, longer bbls, more svelte, smaller bores (generally) and can be simple to exquisite with carvings and engraving.

And the correct answer is ONE OF EACH.   ;D

careful how you define "each", could be dozens of guns!

IN your shoes, if  i were a wingshooter I'd study the smoothbores,  hunter of large game- big rifles, small game and/or target emphasis I'd pursue a medium bore.  

Check your current states game laws as to bore requirements for current pursuit of "their" game.  Don't want to set your heart on a 40 only to find out (according to the laws) that it's too big for small game and too little for big.  

Maybe that helps you narrow down the search/research.  Best



« Last Edit: September 15, 2014, 06:54:33 AM by WadePatton »
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Offline Standing Bear

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Re: Hello from a new member
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2014, 01:09:30 AM »
Welcome. Hope you enjoy the journey. Where are you located?  There possibly is someone on the ALR who is near you.
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MMA10mm

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Re: Hello from a new member
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2014, 02:44:02 AM »
Wow, thanks for the warm, informative welcome everyone!   The easiest question to answer is that I am located in central IL, just a few miles from Peoria.

As to the era/focus of my interest, I have basically two:  First, I'm interested in the longarm my ancestor would have carried in the Revolution.  Second, as a gun-guy (I'm kind-of backing into flint-locks, as I've been a cartridge gun shooter all my life, mostly handguns, although I really like rifles and shotguns too), I'm kind of liking those Pennsylvania long-rifles...  I could see this turning into a more-than-one thing already...   :D

My family came to the new world in 1643, through Massachusetts, but settling in central Connecticut.  The fourth generation later, my revolutionary war ancestor, moved to Granville, Massachusetts around 1760 and married a descendent of one of the Mayflower pilgrims.  

He joined the 3rd Hampshire County Regiment (Col. John Moseley) of Massachusetts Militia and served in the 9th Company (Capt. William Cooley), which was raised in Granville.  He was not a minuteman, as far as I can tell.  (Each regiment had to raise one company of Minutemen, who were usually young, single and available to respond to a call at a moment's notice. - The rest of the Regt. would be all the other "able bodied men" of the proper age, and I think this is the proper position my ancestor falls into.)

He did not serve with the Continental Army (regulars), but his Militia Regt. was called out three times, and his service included:  

October, 1776:  Battle of White Plains (New York).  (This militia unit was called out to reinforce the Northern Army and subsequent to the battle, they returned to Massachusetts and mustered out with: "73 men with 73 guns, 2 bayonets, 4 swords, 680 flints, and 5 1/2 lbs of powder. The strength and flower of the town were under enlistment.")

From December 1776 through March 1777:  Ft. Ticonderoga (One half the Regt. was sent under the command of the Lt. Col. to help garrison Ft. Ticonderoga through the Winter.  My ancestor was made a Sergeant during this period of service.)

From August 17 to August 21, 1777: Battle of Bennington (Vermont). (The regiment was called up and began marching towards Bennington, but apparently arrived after the victory, or were notified of the victory and their services were no longer needed, as they returned soon thereafter.  I'm guessing the harvest soon approaching also made this period of call-up necessarily short.)

From July - Sept., 1779: My ancestor had joined a different unit, back in Connecticut, and they were called out for coastal protection service against raids being conducted by loyalist ship captain ferrying British troops in raids along the CT coastline.

From what research I've done so far, it seems colonists up to the early 1700s had just as much of a chance of having matchlocks with smooth bores as they did smoothbore flintlocks.  Also, these were very British or German guns with shorter barrels than the long-rifles.  I've also read that flintlock rifles with bores of 45 to 50-cal. were the "typical" long-arms of the militia.  I'm presuming these are not the long-rifles of Pennsylvania-style, as there is also mention of the "western" (Appalachian) frontiersmen being utilized with their long-rifles along the flanks of the main army (which would include both continentals - regulars - and militia units).  I also noted that, later in the war, the French rifles were desirable by the men in the army, because they were lighter than the Brown Bess muskets which they had been using from captured stores...  

So, from what little I've read, it seems my ancestor would most-likely be carrying a British-pattern musket or rifle of about 45-50 caliber, but with a shorter barrel than the Pennsylvania Long-Rifle.  Does this sound logical?  

Unfortunately, no family information is available and nothing was handed down through my line of descendants, so I have nothing evidentiary to go off of...

Now, the good news is that over the winter of 1792/3 the family moved to the Wyoming Valley of NE Pennsylvania and stayed there until about 1850.  They were in the Huntington, Shickshinney, Luzerne County area, just west and northwest of Wilkes-Barra.  That puts them right dead-center of Pennsylvania long-rifle territory and timing.  I've already ran across a couple schools which the family's territory would be right in-between geographically.  Again, no rifles handed down through my branch of the family, but I would think it would be logical that if they used Pennsylvania long-rifles, it would have been from the schools closest to them, wouldn't it?

Offline Natureboy

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Re: Hello from a new member
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2014, 03:46:37 AM »
  I'm also descended from an early militia man, and have done a lot of research into the type of weapon and clothing he would have had.  Many folks who lived near the seashore used smoothbores, for hunting waterfowl and the occasional quadruped with "buck and ball."  Inland, rifles were more common, and people in New England would have probably carried a more English-oriented gun, not the fancy artworks that we know of as "golden age" guns, primarily made by German gunsmiths in Pennsylvania.  So the gun I had made by Terry Williams at Early Rustic Arms has a sliding wooden patchbox, a round-faced "Queen Anne" lock, and wide buttplate similar to those in early Virginia guns.  Of course, I chose fancy curly maple for the stock, and I really enjoy the gun.  I've been wearing colonial clothing for many years, so I didn't have to purchase very much in the way of costuming to create a militia "persona"--knee britches, half-boots like those worn by the "Minuteman" statues found all over MA, and the usual shooting accoutrements.  The story that the war was fought by militia soldiers hiding behind trees and stone walls turns out to be somewhat of a myth.  At the first skirmishes this might have been true, but after the American army was trained in the European style of warfare by Von Clauswitz, Their rifles were taken away and replaced by standardized smoothbores, which could fire much more quickly at the close ranges common to that style of slaughter.  Some riflemen remained as snipers, though. so if you prefer to shoot a rifle for target shooting or hunting, look into the early styles of rifles, few of which, unfortunately, remain.  At Early Rustic Arms, I chose the Colonial Long Rifle, and since my militia ancestors (who also fought at White Plains) were from upstate New York, it probably resembles what they might have carried.  Two brothers, one of which is my ancestor, were in the 2nd Regiment, Ulster County (NY) Militia.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Hello from a new member
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2014, 04:27:25 AM »
...

From what research I've done so far, it seems colonists up to the early 1700s had just as much of a chance of having matchlocks with smooth bores as they did smoothbore flintlocks.  Also, these were very British or German guns with shorter barrels than the long-rifles.  I've also read that flintlock rifles with bores of 45 to 50-cal. were the "typical" long-arms of the militia.  I'm presuming these are not the long-rifles of Pennsylvania-style, as there is also mention of the "western" (Appalachian) frontiersmen being utilized with their long-rifles along the flanks of the main army (which would include both continentals - regulars - and militia units).  I also noted that, later in the war, the French rifles were desirable by the men in the army, because they were lighter than the Brown Bess muskets which they had been using from captured stores...  

So, from what little I've read, it seems my ancestor would most-likely be carrying a British-pattern musket or rifle of about 45-50 caliber, but with a shorter barrel than the Pennsylvania Long-Rifle.  Does this sound logical?  

...

Methinks you have plenty enough research done there for many of the RevWar Living History guys to tell you the two or three MOST likely guns your ancestor would have been carrying.  You can then buy a "knockoff" replica, a well-done replica, or make your own.

THEN you have the great option of all those PA schools and makers, for a truly "American" and fancy_as_you_like Longrifle.

A large part of my folks came from Scotland right around RW times and went all over, but the Paternal line came to NC then TN.  It's easy to get lost in the "tree" when everybody had 64 GGGGGfathers.  

Hey cuz.  ;D
« Last Edit: September 15, 2014, 04:51:52 AM by WadePatton »
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Offline Natureboy

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Re: Hello from a new member
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2014, 05:26:24 AM »
  My revolutionary ancestors were Scots-Irish, hence, no doubt, the county being named "Ulster."  This is in spite of the fact that the previous immigrants were mostly Dutch.  There seems to be endless commentary about what those early guns were like--the German "Jaegers," or long-barreled French and English versions.  My brother just returned from Bavaria, and saw a museum full of long-barreled target and hunting rifles, all carved and decorated like cuckoo clocks.  I also have ancestors from MA, who came on the Mayflower.  Any guns they might have had would have been matchlocks.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Hello from a new member
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2014, 05:33:14 AM »
...seems to be endless commentary about what those early guns were ...

Once you find truly studied sources/experts you'll likely find that the field narrows somewhat.  There are all sorts of folks who'll "hazard a guess" (on this interweb and at the mock battle) and then there are true students of the field with many years of research and study behind them.  

You'll find some of those right around here.


(no i'm not one.)

also: this is not the section for those fellas.  Try the "Antique Collecting" section.  Also see our "virtual museum" (a bit cumbersome but worthwhile).  And also look at the archived remnants of the ALR forum 1.0 (this is 2.0 or 1.1, depending on how fine you chew your tobacco).

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?board=3.0

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?board=21.0

http://www.americanlongrifles.org/old_board/


« Last Edit: September 15, 2014, 05:39:45 AM by WadePatton »
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MMA10mm

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Re: Hello from a new member
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2014, 06:22:45 AM »
Thanks guys!  (and yes, dig deep enough and we probably all can call each other "cuz."  ;D )

I've definitely got some reading to do, and I might stop in the antique collecting section, Wade.

Natureboy, how interesting that our ancestors fought together almost 240 years ago in the same battle of an 8-yr war which only had 13,000 troops on our side...  Connections sometimes boggle the mind.


On another note, I was looking at that inventory, and a couple things struck me:

1) 5-1/2 lbs of powder among 73 men @ 60grs./charge would be 8 rounds worth of powder per man...
2) 680 flints among 73 men = 9.3 flints per rifleman...
3) There were only 2 bayonets among 73 rifles.  This seems to imply that 71 rifles (or so) were not "military pattern" designed to take a bayonet.


Offline Kermit

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Re: Hello from a new member
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2014, 06:44:08 AM »
Any guns they might have had would have been matchlocks.

In my recent digging into my ancestors, who first arrived in MA in 1621, I ran across a document that I can't lay my hands on right now, which recommended that new emmigrants NOT bring matchlocks, but choose instead "snaplocks." I am thinking that the matchlock was found lacking in the New World, and that various flint striking locks soon replaced the matchlock. I've read what I think is uninformed speculation that the wheelocks were the only alternative to the matchlocks. Not so, I expect.

I'm guessing--purely guessing--that my 17th century Massachussets ancestors were likely armed with snaplocks or snaphaunces.
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Offline Natureboy

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Re: Hello from a new member
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2014, 06:55:35 AM »
   Kermit, which boat did your ancestor come on in 1621?  I have a number of direct ancestors who came on the Mayflower, but another, John Winslow, brother of Edward of the Mayflower, came in 1621 on the Fortune.  Shipmates?

Offline Kermit

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Re: Hello from a new member
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2014, 07:14:07 AM »
Nope, the Marmaduke, but his wife came later on the Bona Nova apparently. They died fairly soon after arriving. Their three sons who were left in England with relatives came later as young men in the 1640's, settling in Billerica, MA. Speculation is that they were left property by their father. It's pretty hard to nail down this stuff!
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Offline Natureboy

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Re: Hello from a new member
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2014, 09:11:35 AM »
  Since half of the Mayflower passengers died in the first year, and many from the subsequent voyages, the population of the Plymouth Colony was probably so small that our ancestors had to at least have met each other.  Who knows--since they're easily researched, we might find that some were married.  I'm descended from 5 of the Mayflower families, so that sort of narrows it down.

Offline Virginiarifleman

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Re: Hello from a new member
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2014, 05:05:38 PM »
Welcome to the Forum.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Hello from a new member
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2014, 01:40:03 AM »
Welcome to the forum, MMA10mm.  ;D
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MMA10mm

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Re: Hello from a new member
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2014, 04:15:04 AM »
Thanks fellows!   :)


Oh Natureboy....  I've been looking at Early Rustic Arms' website, and, well, "wow," is all I can say.  I'm looking at "The Colonial Rifled" and just drooling.  That is what the minds' eye thinks of for a colonial musket or rifle...  It's just perfect.  Not ornate, but with every detail one would imagine. 

Offline Natureboy

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Re: Hello from a new member
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2014, 04:24:39 AM »
  I'm pretty happy with my Colonial Long Rifle from ERA.  I had a lot of discussions with Terry about the concept for the gun, and he mostly makes the early types.  One thing, though.  He likes to make them look old, so the wood is stained really dark, with what might be shoe polish.  I have to admit that I took fine emory cloth to mine and re-stained and finished the curly maple with tung oil.  Now, it's really pretty, and sometimes I look at the really famous "golden age" museum pieces as if they're actually kind of silly, with all the engraving and escutcheons.  Mine has a Colerain 42" 54-caliber barrel, and it shoots great. Because he had the barrel in stock, it didn't take all that long to get the gun from him.  That's the hard part-waiting for that package to arrive.  Some builders, if they're busy, require a year to finish a project.  I'm amazed that there are so many really fine gunsmiths making beautiful rifles and smoothbores today, at a time when most shooters are buying those truly ugly plastic semi-automatics.  What a waste of money and ammo.

MMA10mm

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Re: Hello from a new member
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2014, 04:37:11 AM »
Now that I have my sights set on a colonial-style rifle, I'm thinking about my Pennsylvania connections.  

My ancestors were there from 1793-1852 or so, right in the golden age.  Again, I have no family hand-me-downs to base my presumptions on.  My family moved to the "Wyoming Valley," but more specifically, in the Huntington/Shickshinney area, just west/southwest of what would become Wilkes-Barre.  

This area is very close and quite in-between the locales of the Northampton/ Allentown/ Lehigh School and the North Susquehanna School.  (Am I wrong to think that in those days, due to transportation being difficult, it would be more-likely to have a rifle of a nearby gunsmith? - Knowing there are always exceptions, and that interstate transportation did happen...)

Any suggestions for a modern maker who follows one of these general schools?  

MMA10mm

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Re: Hello from a new member
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2014, 04:53:11 AM »
  I'm pretty happy with my Colonial Long Rifle from ERA.  I had a lot of discussions with Terry about the concept for the gun, and he mostly makes the early types.  One thing, though.  He likes to make them look old, so the wood is stained really dark, with what might be shoe polish.  I have to admit that I took fine emory cloth to mine and re-stained and finished the curly maple with tung oil.  Now, it's really pretty, and sometimes I look at the really famous "golden age" museum pieces as if they're actually kind of silly, with all the engraving and escutcheons.  Mine has a Colerain 42" 54-caliber barrel, and it shoots great. Because he had the barrel in stock, it didn't take all that long to get the gun from him.  That's the hard part-waiting for that package to arrive.  Some builders, if they're busy, require a year to finish a project.  I'm amazed that there are so many really fine gunsmiths making beautiful rifles and smoothbores today, at a time when most shooters are buying those truly ugly plastic semi-automatics.  What a waste of money and ammo.

Yes, I see what you mean about the dark staining.  On one hand it makes it look the right age, but I totally agree with you about loving the look of a nice piece of maple on a long-rifle. For my part, I'll probably stick with something plain on the colonial rifle, and will look for the Pennsylvania rifle to have "look" to it with some curly, properly-finished maple...  :)

ken

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Re: Hello from a new member
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2014, 01:17:03 PM »
Welcome to the sight !! Lot s of good people and good Info.

Offline Natureboy

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Re: Hello from a new member
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2014, 11:49:43 PM »
  Gunsmith Peter Alexander discusses the trend to make guns look like they were found in the attic, but I think he's right in that people did not buy old guns in 1770.  That said, I really like the way Terry Williams treated the barrel and lock, so that it does look like it's had some use.  He said that he'd leave the dings and scratches to me.