Author Topic: John Moll I, 1746-1794. He was a gunsmith in Allentown, PA  (Read 8821 times)

Antiqueguns

  • Guest
John Moll I, 1746-1794. He was a gunsmith in Allentown, PA
« on: September 18, 2014, 12:47:21 AM »
Hi Fellas, here is a rifle I recently picked up.  I think it is quite a find, let me know what you think?

John Moll I, 1746-1794.   He was a gunsmith in Allentown, PA during the Revolutionary War.  According to article by Sam Dyle and Earl Heffner Jr.  "On June 8, 1778, John Moll I, swore an Oath of Allegiance.  He had been a member of Northampton County Militia.  He was a member 8th class, of the 3rd company of the 1st Battalion.  He was never called to active duty, since his services were used in the State Gun Factory in Allentown, PA."

"After the war, inspite of a bad economy, Moll prospered in his trade.  His inventory exhibited a vast store of tools and personal property.  Totaling $1.,221.,00, a large sum at that time."
This rifle is a single shot flint converted to percussion.   39-1/2" octagon barrel. Single trigger.  Maker Name:  JOHN * MOLL on top of barrel, with some indistinct markings between the word JOHN and the upper tang.  They could be unit markings. 
Browned barrel with brass furniture. Full length wood stock with high comb and cheek piece for the right handed shooter.

FEATURES: Brass blade front sight. V-notch rear sight. Brass fore end cap, ramrod guides, trigger guard, side plate, modestly engraved patchbox and crescent shaped butt plate. Top rear of barrel signed "John Moll". Brass patchbox, in typical MOLL design.   Wood ramrod with metal tips on both ends. The brass tip appears to be from a spent .32 RF brass casing. 

 According to the previous owner:
" This Kentucky rifle was inherited by Murray B. Schroeder from W. John Merkle, Mountainsite Farms, Allentown, Pa., at the time of his death on July 2, 1932.  It was sold out of the Estate of Murray B. Schroeder in 2014.   The gun was originally a flintlock and was made by John Moll of Allentown, Pa. about 1750.  (This is clearly not correct, since JOHN MOLL I would have been 4 years old at the time.)  According to Col. Dillon in his book "The Kentucky Rifle", Moll was one of the very early gunsmith's in this country. According to Dillon, the rifle was changed to percussion ignition around 1840. The lock was made in London. All metal work not part of the percussion ignition is part of the original gun."

CONDITION: Very Good. Modest loss of brown finish with signs of old pitting, especially at the nipple and rear of barrel. The barrel appears original length.    Patchbox is very good. Hammer and trigger operate correctly. Stock shows very light wear with loss of finish at the edges.  Traces of what appears to be some numbers between name and barrel breech.  Unit markings? 

According to Flayderman's Guide the guns made for the Revolutionary War were plainer, had sturdier stocks and shorter barrels than later guns made for the commercial market.  This gun is much plainer than later JOHN MOLL II guns that have been seen on the market, Rock Island recently sold a later JOHN MOLL II gun for just under $29,000.  The signature is very similar to the signature on this gun, but from reading I have done, both gunsmiths signed guns identically. 


John Moll I, 1746-1794.   He was a gunsmith in Allentown, PA during the Revolutionary War.  According to article by Sam Dyle and Earl Heffner Jr.  "On June 8, 1778, John Moll I, swore an Oath of Allegiance.  He had been a member of Northampton County Militia.  He was a member 8th class, of the 3rd company of the 1st Battalion.  He was never called to active duty, since his services were used in the State Gun Factory in Allentown, PA."
"After the war, inspite of a bad economy, Moll prospered in his trade.  His inventory exhibited a vast store of tools and personal property.  Totaling $1.,221.,00, a large sum at that time."
This rifle is a single shot flint coverted to percussion.   39-1/2" octagon barrel. Single trigger.  Maker Name:  JOHN * MOLL on top of barrel, with some indistinct markings between the word JOHN and the upper tang.  They could be unit markings. 
Browned barrel with brass furniture. Full length wood stock with high comb and cheek piece for the right handed shooter.
FEATURES: Brass blade front sight. V-notch rear sight. Brass fore end cap, ramrod guides, trigger guard, side plate, modestly engraved patchbox and crescent shaped butt plate. Top rear of barrel signed "John Moll". Brass patchbox, in typical MOLL design.   Wood ramrod with metal tips on both ends. The brass tip appears to be from a spent .32 RF brass casing.   According to the previous owner:
" This Kentucky rifle was inherited by Murray B. Schroeder from W. John Merkle, Mountainsite Farms, Allentown, Pa., at the time of his death on July 2, 1932.  It was sold out of the Estate of Murray B. Schroeder in 2014.   The gun was originally a flintlock and was made by John Moll of Allentown, Pa. about 1750.  (This is clearly not correct, since JOHN MOLL I would have been 4 years old at the time.)  According to Col. Dillon in his book "The Kentucky Rifle", Moll was one of the very early gunsmith's in this country. According to Dillon, the rifle was changed to percussion ignition around 1840. The lock was made in London. All metal work not part of the percussion ignition is part of the original gun."
CONDITION: Very Good. Modest loss of brown finish with signs of old pitting, especially at the nipple and rear of barrel. The barrel appears original length.    Patchbox is very good. Hammer and trigger operate correctly. Stock shows very light wear with loss of finish at the edges. The barrel markings are hard to see I the photos, but unquestioned when seen in hand.

According to Flayderman's Guide the guns made for the Revolutionary War were plainer, had sturdier stocks and shorter barrels than later guns made for the commercial market.  This gun is much plainer than later JOHN MOLL II guns that have been seen on the market, Rock Island recently sold a later JOHN MOLL II gun for just under $29,000.  The signature is very similar to the signature on this gun, but from reading I have done, both gunsmiths signed guns identically. 




















Antiqueguns

  • Guest
Re: John Moll I, 1746-1794. He was a gunsmith in Allentown, PA
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2014, 12:49:27 AM »
Hi Fellas, from everything I can fine this is a JOHN MOLL I gun, thoughts?

John Moll I, 1746-1794.   He was a gunsmith in Allentown, PA during the Revolutionary War.  According to article by Sam Dyle and Earl Heffner Jr.  "On June 8, 1778, John Moll I, swore an Oath of Allegiance.  He had been a member of Northampton County Militia.  He was a member 8th class, of the 3rd company of the 1st Battalion.  He was never called to active duty, since his services were used in the State Gun Factory in Allentown, PA."
"After the war, inspite of a bad economy, Moll prospered in his trade.  His inventory exhibited a vast store of tools and personal property.  Totaling $1.,221.,00, a large sum at that time."
This rifle is a single shot flint coverted to percussion.   39-1/2" octagon barrel. Single trigger.  Maker Name:  JOHN * MOLL on top of barrel, with some indistinct markings between the word JOHN and the upper tang.  They could be unit markings. 
Browned barrel with brass furniture. Full length wood stock with high comb and cheek piece for the right handed shooter.
FEATURES: Brass blade front sight. V-notch rear sight. Brass fore end cap, ramrod guides, trigger guard, side plate, modestly engraved patchbox and crescent shaped butt plate. Top rear of barrel signed "John Moll". Brass patchbox, in typical MOLL design.   Wood ramrod with metal tips on both ends. The brass tip appears to be from a spent .32 RF brass casing.   According to the previous owner:
" This Kentucky rifle was inherited by Murray B. Schroeder from W. John Merkle, Mountainsite Farms, Allentown, Pa., at the time of his death on July 2, 1932.  It was sold out of the Estate of Murray B. Schroeder in 2014.   The gun was originally a flintlock and was made by John Moll of Allentown, Pa. about 1750.  (This is clearly not correct, since JOHN MOLL I would have been 4 years old at the time.)  According to Col. Dillon in his book "The Kentucky Rifle", Moll was one of the very early gunsmith's in this country. According to Dillon, the rifle was changed to percussion ignition around 1840. The lock was made in London. All metal work not part of the percussion ignition is part of the original gun."
CONDITION: Very Good. Modest loss of brown finish with signs of old pitting, especially at the nipple and rear of barrel. The barrel appears original length.    Patchbox is very good. Hammer and trigger operate correctly. Stock shows very light wear with loss of finish at the edges.
According to Flayderman's Guide the guns made for the Revolutionary War were plainer, had sturdier stocks and shorter barrels than later guns made for the commercial market.  This gun is much plainer than later JOHN MOLL II guns that have been seen on the market, Rock Island recently sold a later JOHN MOLL II gun for just under $29,000.  The signature is very similar to the signature on this gun, but from reading I have done, both gunsmiths signed guns identically. 

« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 04:11:13 AM by Acer Saccharum »

Offline Buck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
  • A.F.A.M. # 934, Trinity Commandry #80
Re: John Moll I, 1746-1794. He was a gunsmith in Allentown, PA
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2014, 01:03:20 AM »
Antiqeguns,
Welcome, What you appear to have is a restock of an early Moll rifle. The stock architecture does not reflect the period in which John Moll sr. worked. This rifle appears to have been restocked in the 1830's. This was not uncommon and shouldn't hinder your enjoyment of owning the rifle. I am sure now that I started this the others will participate and confirm what I have stated. There are a few members here that collect rifles from that school and can inform you a little bit better on Moll than I can.
Buck

Offline Topknot

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 463
    • www.yahoo.com
Re: John Moll I, 1746-1794. He was a gunsmith in Allentown, PA
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2014, 02:00:09 AM »
Antiqueguns,
I would have liked to see your John Moll rifle but, there are no pictures to look at. I am sure that probably 99% of the members would also  have liked to see that master built rifle. It would be nice to have looked at it.

                       topknot
TIM COMPTON, SR.

    layover to catch meddlers!

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4224
Re: John Moll I, 1746-1794. He was a gunsmith in Allentown, PA
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2014, 02:02:12 AM »
I agree with Buck.
The round tail lock and the general architecture of the stock looks to be 1830's, give or take some.
John  
John Robbins

Offline Buck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
  • A.F.A.M. # 934, Trinity Commandry #80
Re: John Moll I, 1746-1794. He was a gunsmith in Allentown, PA
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2014, 02:13:10 AM »
Topknot,
This is the rifle pictured above.

John,
The lock as you said made me think that, but also the "short wrist" I have seen several rifles from that school and period with the exaggerated short wrist.
Buck
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 02:17:46 AM by Buck »

Offline Topknot

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 463
    • www.yahoo.com
Re: John Moll I, 1746-1794. He was a gunsmith in Allentown, PA
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2014, 02:33:01 AM »
Antiqueguns, my apologies. There must be something wrong, because I am not getting any pictures. every other thread is ok.

                                          topknot
TIM COMPTON, SR.

    layover to catch meddlers!

Offline louieparker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 831
Re: John Moll I, 1746-1794. He was a gunsmith in Allentown, PA
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2014, 03:05:16 AM »
This rifle is not a Rev war period gun..  John the first had a son and grandson who also  were named john and also gunsmiths,, LP

Offline Karl Kunkel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 959
Re: John Moll I, 1746-1794. He was a gunsmith in Allentown, PA
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2014, 03:51:24 AM »
Cheek piece and lock panels give the appearance of a later period restock.
Kunk

Offline Buck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
  • A.F.A.M. # 934, Trinity Commandry #80
Re: John Moll I, 1746-1794. He was a gunsmith in Allentown, PA
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2014, 04:38:50 AM »
Antiqueguns,
I am not familiar with your collecting experience, but don't get discouraged. You have had some of the best seasoned collectors post. What I would suggest now is ask some questions on how and why we all came to the same conclusion. If you do that I am sure most will elaborate. 
Buck

Antiqueguns

  • Guest
Re: John Moll I, 1746-1794. He was a gunsmith in Allentown, PA
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2014, 05:10:19 AM »
Sure, I would appreciate reasons why you came to certain conclusions, the signature is difficult to read, but it is there, and looks exactly like the John Moll Signature that was on the Rock Island gun.  I am out west and we don't see the numbers of these guns that you see I the East, so much knowledge comes from books, authors take so much for granted and seldom explain things adequately or go into so much detail, that they loose their way. The photos are working, everyone but one poster can see them, I posted several and large in size,  your computer might be older and not has as much memory.

thanks

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4042
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: John Moll I, 1746-1794. He was a gunsmith in Allentown, PA
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2014, 06:08:46 PM »
Antiqueguns - you very definitely have a restocked John Moll, it could be John Moll I (Johannes Moll) or John Moll II as their signatures are practically identical and the signature here is worn/corroded enough that it would be almost impossible to determine.  Also, going by the hardware, it could have been taken from a very late John I or an early John II rifle.  However, the bottom line is that it's a restock.  The barrel, buttplate, sideplate, box and guard are from the original rifle.  The pipes may be also, can't tell from these photos.  Fortunately whoever restocked it seems to have been fairly respectful to the original furnishings, although the buttplate has been obviously filed down to fit the newer/thinner stock.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4224
Re: John Moll I, 1746-1794. He was a gunsmith in Allentown, PA
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2014, 06:56:27 PM »
Antiqueguns,
I am not familiar with your collecting experience, but don't get discouraged.

Antiqueguns, I wonder if you're not the dealer that has this web page, and others? http://www.antiqueguns.com/robles.htm

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with dealers asking questions here, but if you are, as a courtesy, could mention such in your post.

John   
John Robbins

Antiqueguns

  • Guest
Re: John Moll I, 1746-1794. He was a gunsmith in Allentown, PA
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2014, 11:13:17 PM »
Hello, I made no attempt to hide my dealer status, that is why my user ID is antiqueguns, my web site it antiqueguns.com. But I come to this site with sincere questions and I am NOT looking to promote my web site or solicit.  So I did not feel it appropriate to to make a point of  my dealer status.  I did not want to come across as soliciting.    If I was incorrect, it is hard to know just how to act.  Please forgive an overlooked mistake.   The information I quote in the description is information that was presented to me with the purchase of this gun.

Thanks to everyone for their comments.

regards

eddillon

  • Guest
Re: John Moll I, 1746-1794. He was a gunsmith in Allentown, PA
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2014, 01:10:44 AM »
Rob,
You have come to the right place to learn about American long Rifles.  We are fortunate to have some of the top long rifle experts as active participants on this forum.  I have been a member long enough to have learned much from their shared knowledge.  It really helped a few months back when I bid on and won a long rifle on your site.  I feel that I got a good rifle at a good price.  Probably would not have bid had I not gained some knowledge from this site.  Hang in there.  You run a good auction.  I can tell by your acquisitions of some @!*% fine auction items, that you are really out there working your tail off to come up with some fine selections that are within the reach of mere mortals.  I think that the long rifle I got from you was a proverbial diamond in a goat's butt.
Here is a link to a thread about the rifle from your auction.  Keep finding them!!

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=30426.msg299585#msg299585

P.S.  This is an unpaid and unsolicited testimonial.  Just want to be fair to a businessman from whom I have gotten several reasonably priced antiques. :)
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 01:21:32 AM by aka california eddillon »

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4042
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: John Moll I, 1746-1794. He was a gunsmith in Allentown, PA
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2014, 02:19:56 AM »
BTW, Antiqueguns:  you asked *how* or why many would immediately denote this as a restock.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I can speak for myself and tell you that I have spent many years researching Northampton Co. PA ca. 1750s through 1800, and I've spent a LOT of time on specific gunmakers of the region, first and foremost among them the Molls.  I've personally seen a large number (relatively - they're not on every street corner after all) of signed and attributed Moll rifles, and I think I can speak with some experience when it comes to these pieces as to what may or may not be original.  I don;t mean to denigrate your piece by calling it a 'restock,' but that is exactly what it is.  Oddly enough, I think it may have been restocked in the same area, albeit @ 1840 or so when a lot of the earlier stock curvatures had long since fallen by the wayside.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Buck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
  • A.F.A.M. # 934, Trinity Commandry #80
Re: John Moll I, 1746-1794. He was a gunsmith in Allentown, PA
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2014, 02:44:38 AM »
Rob,
I am personally not offended by your dealer status and glad to see you are trying to gather the best information regarding the rifle. Good luck and thanks for posting the rifle.
Buck