Author Topic: Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles  (Read 13349 times)

MMA10mm

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Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles
« on: September 19, 2014, 07:33:27 AM »
In my genealogical searching, I recently learned I am a direct descendent of a Massachusetts militiaman of the Revolutionary War.  I've also been reading a lot about my family's history from 1600s & 1700s CT and MA to their settling in NE Pennsylvania in 1793, where they stayed until the 1850s.

My interest in shooting is now crossing over to my heritage, so I'm very interested in learning about and eventually acquiring 1 or 2 historically-consistent long guns to what they'd have possessed and used in those times.  If you will bear with me, I have some questions and was told this forum is the perfect spot for answers. 

First, I'm interested in the longarm my 6x great-grandfather would have carried in the Revolution.  

He moved from central Connecticut to Granville, Massachusetts around 1760 and joined (when he was around 40 years old) the 3rd Hampshire County Regiment (Col. John Moseley) of Massachusetts Militia and served in the 9th Company (Capt. William Cooley), which was raised in Granville.  His earliest service was October, 1776, and he was called out three times with this regiment through August, 1777 including service related to the Battles of White Plains and Bennington, and garrisoning Ft. Ticonderoga.  In Summer of 1779 he served coastal defense duty with a different militia unit in coastal Connecticut. 

I am very keen to learn what type of long arm he would have most likely used in the war.  His company muster records indicated out of 73 men with rifles, only 2 had bayonets, so with that, plus how early in the war it was, and that he was militia and not a continental, I'm thinking the long-gun was not a military-pattern musket.  Most-likely he'd have had a personally-owned long arm he'd bring along when called out, wouldn't he?

My second interest is along this same family line.  They moved to the Wyoming Valley in the Winter of 1792/3 and settled in Huntington, near Shickshinney in Luzerne County.  Some of the family appear to still be there, but my branch left in 1850 to come west to Illinois.  From cursory research, I believe 1793-1850 puts them right dead-center of the golden age of Pennsylvania flintlock long-rifle territory and timing.  

Again, no rifles handed down through my branch of the family, so I'm left making a "best guess."  I know, geographically, they would have been almost equidistant between the Northampton/ Allentown/ Lehigh School and the North Susquehanna School.  Would it be logical to presume that if they used Pennsylvania long-rifles, it would have been from the schools closest to them?  I know there was interstate transportation back then, so anything is possible, but assumptions are the best I can do unless you fellows have some insight for me.  Was there one (or more) known maker(s) in Luzerne County in that time frame?

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2014, 08:12:29 AM »
One suggestion is to go to the ALR VIRTUAL LIBRARY and select the 'Fowlers' Forum. There are two pieces there that fit what you are looking for. The most promising of the two is likely to be the 'Abner Howe' gun since it was carried in 1775 and 1776 by a known Minute Man/Militia member. The second is also a New England gun that could have been used, as well, in the struggle for independence.
Good luck on your search and let us know how you fare.
Dick

Offline debnal

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Re: Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2014, 10:48:07 PM »
You mention his company muster records indicated the men had rifles. Did the roll actually say rifles?
Al

MMA10mm

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Re: Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2014, 11:35:35 PM »
Thanks guys.  I'm a very new member and was having trouble getting into the virtual library, but I made it in last night.  I have some reading/looking to do...

Debnal, Let me double check that.  I may have mis-spoke, but as I recall, it was rifles...  Working tonight and tomorrow, but I'll try to look during lunch hour.

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2014, 12:11:59 AM »
It is extremely unlikely your ancestor carried a rifle so the source of that information needs to be looked at very critically. As mentioned above, do the muster roles actually use that word? Its much more likely that some later genealogist, who did not know the difference between a musket and a rifle, simply made an assumption. Rifles were virtually unknown in New England until well after the Revolution. This isn't to say none existed, but if they did there is effectively no surviving evidence of it. There is a letter written by John Adams to his wife where he describes some Virginia riflemen demonstrating their skills on Boston Common. In the letter he refers to a "new kind of musket called a rifle" (paraphrased here... I don't have the exact quote at hand) Adams was an accomplished and worldly circuit riding lawyer... if rifles had been common in Massachusetts he would have known it. There were no Massachusetts "Rifle Regiments" and riflemen were considered a specialist adjunct to the Army.

MMA10mm

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Re: Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2014, 02:42:32 AM »
Very good to know!  I couldn't find the reference on my lunch hour, so I'll need to look it up at home.  I bet you are right, though.  The reference also listed 2 bayonets and 5.5 lbs of powder (no mention of balls).  Since this was militia and not continentals, is it more likely they brought a personally owned "fowling piece," which they used with ball, or were the states supplying arms this early?  (Of course, they could be from the French - Indian War as well, so perhaps they were "state owned"? -- After all the British were after stockpiles at Lexington and Concord, right?)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 02:45:02 AM by MMA10mm »

MMA10mm

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Re: Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2014, 11:53:01 PM »
It is extremely unlikely your ancestor carried a rifle so the source of that information needs to be looked at very critically. As mentioned above, do the muster roles actually use that word? Its much more likely that some later genealogist, who did not know the difference between a musket and a rifle, simply made an assumption. Rifles were virtually unknown in New England until well after the Revolution. This isn't to say none existed, but if they did there is effectively no surviving evidence of it. There is a letter written by John Adams to his wife where he describes some Virginia riflemen demonstrating their skills on Boston Common. In the letter he refers to a "new kind of musket called a rifle" (paraphrased here... I don't have the exact quote at hand) Adams was an accomplished and worldly circuit riding lawyer... if rifles had been common in Massachusetts he would have known it. There were no Massachusetts "Rifle Regiments" and riflemen were considered a specialist adjunct to the Army.

JV, You and debnal were right on the money.  In this case I was the person who messed it up.  (I guess I've been too conditioned to call long arms "rifles," is my only excuse.)  Here is what the record I found said:

Quote
The company numbered 73 men with 73 guns, 2 bayonets, 4 swords, 680 flints, and 5 1/2 lbs of powder. The strength and flower of the town were under enlistment.
This was from a book: The History of Western Massachusetts, by Josiah Holland

"Guns"  That narrows it down some, doesn't it?!?   ::)

I found it interesting that they have about 9 flints per man, but only enough powder for about 8 shots (assuming about 60-65grs of powder per shot).  No mention of how much lead or how many balls... 

I've been doing as promised and been reading.  I've run across some references and pictures of "Committee of Safety Muskets," or "Militia Muskets," which seem to be an American produced version of the Brown Bess with some slight modifications.  It appears these were ordered and paid for by the Committees of Safety or possibly even state legislatures (surreptitiously?).  These would be the arms stockpiled (along with flints, lead and powder, and apparently, as I was reading, I learned they also had some very small artillery) in the armories.  So, I presume this could very well be the type of weapon (see what I did there?) that my ancestor likely carried.

I guess my first question should be:  Do you gentlemen know if there's any hope of finding a reference which might have a record of the type of long-arm they were using?  (I presume Massachusetts Historical Society or maybe a State Historical agency would be the place to start.)

Offline jdm

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Re: Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2014, 12:05:37 AM »
Was your ancestor a farmer or a city boy? This may have some effect on the type of gun he used.  I would guess coming from a New England state A Fowler might be the easiest  choice he had. Jim
JIM

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2014, 10:36:18 PM »
There were very very few "Committee of Safety" muskets and its is extremely unlikely you ancestor had one. The term has come to be used, erroneously, by both collectors and dealers to describe any musket made from an assortment of parts but not matching a recognized martial arm. These were fairly common although the most likely scenario for you ancestor was a fowler with the forestock cut back and a bayonet lug attached. These were reasonably common. A fowler without a bayonet was nearly useless in the context of 18th century warefare.


Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2014, 03:51:34 AM »
Thanks Joe, that pretty well confirms my hope for the two pieces up on my wall!
Dick

MMA10mm

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Re: Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2014, 04:48:47 AM »
Well, as I promised I've been doing a lot of reading, and I realize why you guys didn't all jump on here and echo the same answer over and over again.  In my research, I've learned that, before the Continental Congress got moving on the Continental Army and it's supplies including firearms in about 1777-1778, the Committees of Safety, Colony legislatures, and sometimes even just the concerned citizens who banded together, equipped militia units with a wide variety of weapons, including:  arms captured during the French-Indian war, arms re-built by local gunsmiths, private arms brought by the men from home, arms seized from loyalists, and arms contracted by the legislatures, Committees of Safety, and other revolutionary organizations from many gunsmiths.  Even after Congress started working on the problem, supply was so limited, there was still a wide variety with Brown Bess pattern and later French Charleville patterns being made at the arsenals, and then of course there was the "aide" which was being shipped in from Europe by buyers, such as Benjamin Franklin, Silas Deane, and Arthur Lee... 

NOW, I get it!  There's no one answer.  At all!

Luckily in my reading, I did run across a spicy little tidbit.  Remember, my ancestors were in South-Western Massachusetts and Central Connecticut.  (If you draw a line dissecting Connecticut into eastern and western halves, my family would live along that line and on into  Massachusetts along the CT border (Granville, MA), about where that line would stick up into the belly of Western MA., just west of what we call Springfield, MA today. 

So, the spicy tidbit:  I found one reference (which sited Moller's American Military Shoulder Arms, Vol. I, which sounds like a book I need to find, because many of the articles I've been reading keep citing it) which said an important detail:  Most of Connecticut's iron works which were the sources of barrels and locks were centered around the northwestern town of Goshen, CT.  That's pretty close to where my ancestors were. 

I'm guessing, if his militia needed muskets, that would have been a place close by they could buy them; although as I type that, I wonder, since production was so limited, if Connecticut legislature and committees of safety would have had a monopoly on their production...  The article also said there were about 2500-3000 gunsmiths in colonial America, with Pennsylvania being the primary colony producing firearms.  I suppose western Massachusetts would have had their own local gunsmiths.  So, more reading and searching!   ;D

Offline debnal

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Re: Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2014, 05:05:41 AM »
Goshen, CT was the territory of Medad Hills, who was a Committee of Safety gun maker and also produced very nice fowlers. He had many men working for him and based on the number of surviving signed and attributed guns, it seems his shop had a significant output. I had a COS musket signed by Medad Hills. My musket was marked to the Conn 1st regiment. They are very distinctive and I have two others that could be attributed to him.
Al

Offline Curt J

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Re: Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2014, 06:38:05 AM »
For what it's worth, I know a family here in Illinois, who also have a Committee of Safety musket, made by Medad Hills.  It has been handed down through the family and was used in the Revolution by an ancestor of theirs.

MMA10mm

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Re: Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2014, 08:17:54 AM »
For what it's worth, I know a family here in Illinois, who also have a Committee of Safety musket, made by Medad Hills.  It has been handed down through the family and was used in the Revolution by an ancestor of theirs.

That is amazing!  Unfortunately, my 4xGr-grandfather was the only child of his mother, and she died when he was very young.  His dad re-married and had 4-5 more kids, and I think my ancestor left the family in PA and never went back or at least did not have much contact with them.  I'm sure there is more to that story.  Even still, I'm not even sure I would have been in the line of inheritance of any musket or rifle, because back in the 1800s up to the great depression, my family was quite, ummmm, prodigious in their reproductive habits, shall we say?  I'm finding at least 4 generations where there were 8-12 kids....  For all I know the musket and/or rifle are still in the family, just down a different branch than mine.

Thank you debnal and Curt for the Medad Hills information.  I will have to do some researching on him.  I'm wondering also about Western Massachusetts gunsmiths. 

I found a reference to a "Granville, CT. Committee of Safety Musket" (as far as I can tell, there was no Granville CT. - It was always Granville, MA.) in a historical collection of the Robert M. Reilly Papers at Louisiana State University.  I think I will send away for photo-copies of the information from that file. 

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2014, 08:20:47 PM »
You might want to consider looking into Phineas Sawyer of Worcestor, MA too, as he made many types of guns for many people including George Washington. Most seem to have been fowlers and I am not aware of any muskets, but his was the finest work of all.
Dick

Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2014, 08:44:11 PM »
Another of the best craftsman in New England during Washington's time was Thomas Earl. Ole George was pretty well off and enjoyed guns made by him as well.
Joel Hall

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Re: Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2014, 03:17:39 AM »
Well, I made contact with LSU Library Special Collections, and sent in my order for the research materials.  I will keep you guys advised of what Mr. Reilly lists as a "Granville CT Committee of Safety Musket".  I'm hoping there will be something definitive to tell me who the maker is and how to reproduce it.

I will definitely look up those Massachusetts makers as well.  Thank you, gents.

oakridge

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Re: Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2014, 03:35:41 AM »
MMA 10mm,
The Reilly collection at LSU is Bob's research notes, etc. for the books he wrote, including "United States Martial Flintlocks". Good luck with your quest.

MMA10mm

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Re: Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2014, 01:11:39 AM »
Well, LSU was fantastic fast!  I've received the written description, line drawings, & some photos.  Overall, this gun looks very French.

The barrel is .72-cal., smoothbore, 45" long, & octagonal for the first 12" and then round to the muzzle.  It has a bayonet stud on top near the muzzle.  The lock is typical but has a few distinguishing features, as does the trigger guard.  The face of the trigger is very straight.  The stock is maple and there are 3 wide barrel bands, which is what makes me feel it has a french look.  More later.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 01:22:17 AM by MMA10mm »

MMA10mm

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Re: Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2014, 02:35:32 AM »
OK, well, later came quicker than I thought...   ;D

There are 2 photos of the rifle.  Via the photos, it is apparent the gun he was seeing is in a museum.  The photos were taken while the gun was still behind glass, and there is a very professional, museum-quality note card attached to the glass describing the gun.  Unfortunately, the photos are so close-up, there is no way to tell what museum it is in.  However, the scratch paper Mr. Reilly took his notes on has in tiny letters at the bottom, "Smithsonian Institution." 

I believe that is the next step in my quest.

mike blair

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Re: Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2014, 01:27:51 PM »
alright,I'm hooked.i want more.so please let us know where this journey leads.i love stuff like this.(IMHO)these are the people who truly founded our country,the bedrock if  you will.sometimes i just get @!*% tired of hearing what the GRAND HIGH POOBA did,said,ate or read.I'm more interested in what his grooms apprentice or such and so forth thought,did,said or fought.     

Offline JTR

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Re: Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2014, 07:10:13 PM »
,,,,,,, i just get @!*% tired of hearing what the GRAND HIGH POOBA did,said,ate or read.I'm more interested in what his grooms apprentice or such and so forth thought,did,said or fought.     

Ahhh yes, but without the GRAND HIGH POOBA, those 'grooms apprentice or such' would have been saying 'Yes Sir' to a Brit General, as You and I would be today!

John
John Robbins

mike blair

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Re: Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2014, 02:58:10 AM »
(Ahhh yes, but without the GRAND HIGH POOBA, those 'grooms apprentice or such' would have been saying 'Yes Sir' to a Brit General, as You and I would be today!)

OK,sure.but thats not what I'm saying at all.i would just like to hear more about the normal guy.the blacksmith.the tailor.the slave.these are the people who had much more to lose,but they took up arms against the largest and toughest empire of their times and beat it.i want to know why. what would make someone so desperate as to put all he has on to that one roll of the dice.so.do ya get it?i wasn't slagging on the generals and what not.i was just expressing a desire to hear more about my ancestors and yours. 

MMA10mm

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Re: Need input on New England and NE PA long rifles
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2014, 01:49:06 AM »
Well, I will certainly keep you guys informed.  ;D

I'm on both your sides.  I have the deepest admiration and respect for the "grand poo-bahs" (LOL!) of the revolution.  Those guys led the revolution, and they had bigger fortunes and more land to lose than the common folk, but they also had their lives to lose, so in that sense they were on an exactly even footing as the little guy.  The most important thing they deserve our respect for, though, is the ideals that they clung to and stuck with, even after we had won.  They could have turned their back on the principles of liberty and equality and created a new totalitarian government.  (And, indeed, there was some talk of making George Washington, King...)  So, even though they spent a great portion of their personal fortunes, up to the entire thing, on the revolution, they did not set themselves up to monopolize and capitalize on it.

On the other hand, few of us our related to the "grand poo-bahs" of the revolution.  Not to take anything away from those who are, but I have a strong emotional attachment, knowing that my ancestor took a role in securing the freedoms we all enjoy to this day, and which was unique in history on earth at that time.  (Now, that being said, my German ancestry traces back through Hanover and Hesse in what is today called Niedersachson, which, at the time of our revolution is where the Hessians came from, so it's quite likely I had ancestors on both sides of the war, but no torries... :)

So, my journey is a very personal one, but one that I am very, very happy someone is enjoying with me!

My next hope is that I can get some photos of the musket which are not subject to copyright, so I can share them with you guys.  Surprisingly, Bob took no close-up photos of the marking "Granville" on the stock, and what photos there are, are not high-resolution.  As soon as I hear something from the Smithsonian, I will share with you guys.