Author Topic: Is this a repro? (Read 11898 times)

debnal · « **on:** October 21, 2014, 04:50:29 AM »

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=448628984

Not many pictures but looks new to me. Any thoughts?
Al

E.vonAschwege · « **Reply #1 on:** October 21, 2014, 05:38:49 AM »

Oh boy - what a story and what a bunch of hooey... That's not an 1800s gun, nor would I say that it's as old as the earlier dates concocted in that description. There's lots of details about that gun that are inappropriate for a gun actually built as stated in the auction - it's likely several decades old, from early on in the renewed contemporary interest in flintlock rifles. I'm pretty certain that it's a cosmetically altered Cochran lock, I have one in my hand right now.
-Eric

Shreckmeister · « **Reply #2 on:** October 22, 2014, 10:18:31 PM »

I think I may have read that George Washington's family gave it to Jeff Davis' mother at his baby shower.
George likely carried it to Fort Pitt based on the wear marks across the forend.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #3 on:** October 22, 2014, 10:31:39 PM »

The lock is a modified Dixie Gun Works. The rest of the gun looks like a modern muzzleloader built in the late sixties or seventies, possible from one of the kits Dixie offered. I am not sure the patina is engineered, as much as it is from neglect.

Hungry Horse

WadePatton · « **Reply #4 on:** October 23, 2014, 02:50:55 AM »

oh that's some hoot!

The Jefferson Davis Museum in Georgia could not say 100% if it was owned by Jefferson Davis, but they did say that Jefferson Davis owned many rifles.

I'll bet the Jefferson Davis Museum in Georgia could not say 100% (or 10% for that matter) about a lot of things.

No besmirchment of the JDM/GA at all. Probably a great place to visit*.

I has a sneeky suspicion it doesn't make reserve. I has to watch!

and thanks for the info. I may learn something someday somehow.

*not that i can find a museum in GA (a historic site is all (http://gastateparks.org/info/jeffd/)). Mississippi, yes.

stuart cee dub · « **Reply #5 on:** October 24, 2014, 08:04:46 PM »

Ignoring the Cochran lock, those are modern machine made screws and the spring in the patch box mortise with the slot in it is all wrong.
Besides looking too high in relief ,the carving does not seem to have two hundred years of wear on it either .
Admittedly I am not the expert that many on the board are but it's obvious to my untutored eye.
My conclusion ....I would not buy it is an original nor purport it to be as such .

debnal · « **Reply #6 on:** October 24, 2014, 08:27:52 PM »

The seller has just posted more pictures and now has a statement that he cannot guarantee it to be original. He is selling it for another person so he's caught in the middle of all this. The barrel signature just looks too new.
Al

E.vonAschwege · « **Reply #7 on:** October 24, 2014, 09:16:51 PM »

Since the seller asked for more information, I sent him a short note explaining some of the details we discussed here. I suspect the owner who bought it in 2002 was given a lot of the story, then got his hopes up through researching original makers. I'm glad the seller is willing to entertain the idea that it's not original - I'm sure I'm not the only one here who has seen civil war muskets passed down through the generations accompanied by a story from their use in the Revolution - those stories die hard.
-Eric

debnal · « **Reply #8 on:** October 24, 2014, 09:45:04 PM »

Eric,
I went to see a "Revolutionary War" sword that was supposedly carried by a family member during that war. When I got to the nice lady's house I was presented an Ames cavalry saber. It was dated 1864 on the blade. But, that didn't stop the lady from loudly proclaiming it a Rev War sword because her family told her so, and... that was that!
Al

JCKelly · « **Reply #9 on:** October 25, 2014, 10:26:54 PM »

Of course it is a reasonably new rifle, likely 1970's or '80's.

Lots of opinions on that lock. I'm not familiar with Cochran, would have said it was made using Chet Shoults parts. For the younger set, his locks & castings for same were popular in the mid-1970's. Does not look like a Dixie lock (at least not what they sold late 1950's early '60's), unless they made one copying Shoults (quite possible).

19th century guys did not sign their names that way. Carving too high & engraving unimpressive (kinda like mine).

Bob Roller · « **Reply #10 on:** October 26, 2014, 02:25:18 AM »

Quote from: JCKelly on October 25, 2014, 10:26:54 PM

Of course it is a reasonably new rifle, likely 1970's or '80's.

Lots of opinions on that lock. I'm not familiar with Cochran, would have said it was made using Chet Shoults parts. For the younger set, his locks & castings for same were popular in the mid-1970's. Does not look like a Dixie lock (at least not what they sold late 1950's early '60's), unless they made one copying Shoults (quite possible).

19th century guys did not sign their names that way. Carving too high & engraving unimpressive (kinda like mine).

The Shoults lock was the one I made and Cochran copied it and I gave him tips on making them in long phone calls on his dime. Sorta like a mail order hair cut but he did OK.

Bob Roller

DFHicks · « **Reply #11 on:** October 27, 2014, 04:57:10 AM »

Although the old rifles fascinate me, I am not very knowledgeable. However a question comes to mind _ does the apparent abundance of "chicken tracking" engraving on this rifle suggest it is not an original?
Thanks,
DF

Buck · « **Reply #12 on:** October 27, 2014, 01:18:03 PM »

The cross hatching is spaced too far apart in the areas where he shaded, in other words his engraving isn't very tight. That was the 1st give away, also the stock architecture around the lock plate side is also a bit "CLUNKY". The carving however appears to be done very well.
Buck

JTR · « **Reply #13 on:** October 27, 2014, 06:58:40 PM »

So the latest update, from yesterday, says it has a Roller lock. I'm assuming a Mr. Roller lock, and not a lock with a roller? If so, If I was looking for a shooter, I'd buy this gun! It's nicely carved, has lot's of bells and whistles, and if you don't care for some of the engraving, file/sand it off and redo it.

Even as it is now, it looks a lot better than some of the clunks that are being made and sold today! And with a new low reserve, could probably be had for a lot less too!

John

Buck · « **Reply #14 on:** October 27, 2014, 07:43:13 PM »

John,
I agree, the carving is very well done. It is an attractive rifle.
Buck

Robert Wolfe · « **Reply #15 on:** October 27, 2014, 10:28:30 PM »

Yesterday the seller posted that the lock is a "Roller." Would that be Bob Roller?

rich pierce · « **Reply #16 on:** October 27, 2014, 11:52:35 PM »

I believe that the use of "roller" in this sort of context means there's a roller on the frizzen spring or on the frizzen teat that rubs on the frizzen spring.

JTR · « **Reply #17 on:** October 28, 2014, 12:20:12 AM »

I just asked the seller that question, in case Bob doesn't see this and reply.
Certainly no roller on the spring, but might be one on the frizzen.
John

Bob Roller · « **Reply #18 on:** October 28, 2014, 12:40:19 AM »

I didn't see the picture of the gun or lock. Neither the Cochran or my own version made from the Chet Shoults parts had a roller normally.There was an alternate frizzen spring made for the Shoults,a casting that a roller could be installed in.I have one or two of these
but thought they were too flimsy so didn't use them.

Bob Roller

JTR · « **Reply #19 on:** October 28, 2014, 02:02:40 AM »

Bob,
Click on this link, http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=448628984 , and it should bring up the pictures.

Scroll down the page a little and the lock is the first picture.

John

Bob Roller · « **Reply #20 on:** October 28, 2014, 02:20:31 PM »

John,
I think it is one of my locks made about 45 years ago. It is NOT a Shoults because I can see the bridle has two upper screws and the hammer screw looks like mine as well as the top jaw screw.Possibly a Cochran but I don't think so. IF the owner will take the lock off and show us as Abe Lincoln said of the Spencer repeater,the inwardness of the thing. It will settle the question.I see the gun is offered as a relic.
Thanks for the link to locate the pictures.

Bob Roller

Gaeckle · « **Reply #21 on:** October 28, 2014, 04:47:42 PM »

That guy is backpeddling awful fast.......

Majorjoel · « **Reply #22 on:** October 28, 2014, 06:48:00 PM »

Yup, now it's a 45 caliber. Reminds me of a rifle I bought several years ago. The seller insisted it was a William Large 45 cal. that his wife used to shoot regularly. Turned out to be a 36 cal. Douglas. The rest of his story kind of took a dump in my mind's eye.

JTR · « **Reply #23 on:** October 30, 2014, 08:56:18 PM »

Quote from: JTR on October 28, 2014, 12:20:12 AM

I just asked the seller that question, in case Bob doesn't see this and reply.
Certainly no roller on the spring, but might be one on the frizzen.
John

The seller just answered my question, and said he was Told that it the lock was manufactured by Roller. I'd like to see Bob's mark on the inside... So I'll ask him if he can do that.

Thanks for you reply, Bob!

John

JTR · « **Reply #24 on:** October 31, 2014, 05:17:57 AM »

Just got another answer from the seller. I asked him to remove the lock and see if the Roller mark was inside;

"Yes the name Roller is stamped on the lock plate. Please forgive me this is not my gun i am just selling for a guy."

John

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Author Topic: Is this a repro? (Read 11898 times)

DFHicks