Author Topic: Blackpowder Deflagration Temperature  (Read 4195 times)

Offline Chuck Burrows

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Blackpowder Deflagration Temperature
« on: November 07, 2014, 07:18:46 PM »
I'm not looking for the ignition temperature of rifle grade black powder (2F/3F), but rather the temperature it achieves during deflagration (combustion) inside a rifle barrel with a patched ball?
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Blackpowder Deflagration Temperature
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2014, 12:01:52 AM »
You may see a calculated theory temperature of combustion for black powder.
Back in the late 1800's Nobel & Abel tried to accurately measure the actual combustion temperature in pressure bombs.  They used strips of pure metal with a known melting temperature.  They found that a sporting type powder could produce temperatures around 2000 degrees.  Theory calculated is around 2350 degrees.
They determined that a rifle type powder would give about 1850 degrees max and a cannon powder around 1700.

In a gun bore it is a different ball game due to the extent of the bore surface cooling the gases as they are produced.

When I was doing bore fouling work I noticed changes in the powder combustion residue.  As gas temperatures went up I would see a pattern of condensation, agglomeration and then fusion of the potassium carbonate portion of the solid residue.  You have to get up into the 16 to 17 hundred degrees range to see melting and fusion of the potassium carbonate.

There will be variations in the maximum temperature of the gases during powder combustion caused by a number of factors.  These factors effect how much of the solid products of powder combustion are retained in the bore versus how much is blown out as suspended particles in the gases exiting the muzzle after the projectile.  Barrel and charge temperature will play a part in this.


Mad Monk

Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: Blackpowder Deflagration Temperature
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2014, 02:06:32 AM »
Thank you Bill - I figured there was no exact figure considering the various parameters but being in the ballpark helps.....
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

hammer

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Re: Blackpowder Deflagration Temperature
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2014, 11:31:38 AM »
Mad Monk, is your extensive work on fouling still on the web?   I printed it down years ago and wanted to show it to some new shooters.   Couldn't find it, gone along with my memory.   

Peter.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Blackpowder Deflagration Temperature
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2014, 07:49:28 PM »
Mad Monk, is your extensive work on fouling still on the web?   I printed it down years ago and wanted to show it to some new shooters.   Couldn't find it, gone along with my memory.   

Peter.

Not that I am aware of.  Several years ago I cleaned all of that stuff out here at home.  Have some of it stuck in my memory but that is about it.
I took a bit of abuse out of the arm chair experts on the work so I just set it aside.  Figured if I wanted that kind of abuse I'd get a leather whip to go with the wife's leather Indian dress!!!

Mad Monk

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Blackpowder Deflagration Temperature
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2014, 08:18:11 PM »
Mad Monk, is your extensive work on fouling still on the web?   I printed it down years ago and wanted to show it to some new shooters.   Couldn't find it, gone along with my memory.   

Peter.

Not that I am aware of.  Several years ago I cleaned all of that stuff out here at home.  Have some of it stuck in my memory but that is about it.
I took a bit of abuse out of the arm chair experts on the work so I just set it aside.  Figured if I wanted that kind of abuse I'd get a leather whip to go with the wife's leather Indian dress!!!

Mad Monk

This i would love to see.  (NO not the dress/whip!  :o )

Maybe someone has a digital copy archived somewhere?  There are some folks I give extremely high marks to for ACTUAL working knowledge/science/experience regarding what they yak about in this www.  MM, you are one.  And thank you for sharing so much of said knowledge.
Hold to the Wind

Offline davec2

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Re: Blackpowder Deflagration Temperature
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2014, 08:40:09 PM »
I have been a follower of Mad Monk's work for a long time.  There is a tremendous amount of his work and priceless information still residing here:

http://www.laflinandrand.com/page3.htm
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Blackpowder Deflagration Temperature
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2014, 09:42:01 PM »
Mad Monk, is your extensive work on fouling still on the web?   I printed it down years ago and wanted to show it to some new shooters.   Couldn't find it, gone along with my memory.   

Peter.

Not that I am aware of.  Several years ago I cleaned all of that stuff out here at home.  Have some of it stuck in my memory but that is about it.
I took a bit of abuse out of the arm chair experts on the work so I just set it aside.  Figured if I wanted that kind of abuse I'd get a leather whip to go with the wife's leather Indian dress!!!

Mad Monk

This i would love to see.  (NO not the dress/whip!  :o )

Maybe someone has a digital copy archived somewhere?  There are some folks I give extremely high marks to for ACTUAL working knowledge/science/experience regarding what they yak about in this www.  MM, you are one.  And thank you for sharing so much of said knowledge.

As far as I know there are no digital copies of the total work.  A good bit of it was posted on one or two BP cartridge shooting message boards.  Of course some of it did not go over that well since all of my work was in ML rifles.

While the work was extensive it followed a few basic facts.

The only bonus out of it was that I could then explain why you would go out with the same can of powder on different days and get widely varying results in what you saw in bore fouling.  Amount and the form it was in.

For instance.  Bore fouling.  You often read where black powder residue is hygroscopic and corrosive.  The claim is often made that the sulfur residue in the fouling makes it corrosive because the residue is acidic from the sulfur.  Not true. The major portion of the solid particulate matter in the bore residue is potassium carbonate.  Also known as potash.  A medium caustic.  So any acid formed by traces of sulfur bearing gases are quickly "killed" by the vastly larger amount of caustic material.  The corrosiveness is a function of the potassium carbonate itself.
If the RH is below 30% the bore fouling is essentially non-hygroscopic.  Without moisture there will be no corrosion/rusting of the bore nor any attack on any brass on the gun.  Then between 30% RH and about 80 to 85% RH the residue is hygroscopic and pick up moisture in relation to the level of humidity.  When you get up around 90% RH the residue becomes deliquescent.  That is to say it pulls enough moisture from the air to almost completely dissolve itself.  If there are no chlorides present in the residue the rusting/corrosion is simply a surface attack.  Almost uniform in effect over the surface covered by the residue.  But if there even small amounts of a chloride in the residue you will see pit corrosion on the surface as the chloride salt crystals for ideal electrolytic cell sites.

Amount of solid particulate matter left in the bore versus the amount eject in the spent propelling gases.  My work showed that this is tied to the temperature of the air when you shoot.  If you shoot with the temp down into the 40s you get far less bore residue that if you are shooting at 80 to 90 degrees air temp.  The "texture" of the bore residue also changes with the temperature of the gun barrel during shooting.  As the ambient temperature goes up there will be agglomeration and heat fusion of the particles produced by powder combustion.  As the particles grow in size less are carried out of the bore in the spent propelling gases.  The larger fused particles are also more difficult to remove from the bore with a damp or wet cleaning patch.  There is no difference in the solubility of the residue.  Just that larger particles take longer to dissolve into the damp/wet cleaning patch.  Takes a little longer and more strokes with the cleaning rod.


Mad Monk