Author Topic: Regulating new front sight?  (Read 10102 times)

Bruce in WV

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Regulating new front sight?
« on: November 16, 2014, 05:02:38 AM »
Put in a new front sight - very tall when the gunsmith finished making it - so I could set it up the way I want.

Regulating it seems obvious - figure out baseline charge and shoot, file, shoot again, file some more (etc) until you're on target at desired range.

Other than being careful not to take off too much, are there other recommendations the forum could offer? Sometimes the simplest processes can be messed up by not knowing a trick or two.

Offline Virginiarifleman

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Re: Regulating new front sight?
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2014, 07:54:53 AM »
Bruce, just make sure you file a little at a time and then fire a round. sometimes it doesn't take but a few swipes of the file when your close to the impact point you desire.

Offline little joe

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Re: Regulating new front sight?
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2014, 12:41:36 PM »
Depending on your eyes and rear sight location you may also want to widen the rear sight notch at some point.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Regulating new front sight?
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2014, 05:00:22 PM »
When you start getting kinda close, I would start shooting three or four shot groups befor doing any more filing. I would not trust just one shot as you might get a flyer and adjusting your sight on the results of a flyer could be the wrong adjustment.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Regulating new front sight?
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2014, 06:50:58 PM »
Depending on your eyes and rear sight location you may also want to widen the rear sight notch at some point.

Or create an express "V" by filing the notch out altogether.  I read of this years ago (Elmer Keith probably) but never got around to really trying it out until i built my current rifle.

Didn't think much about it developing load/sighting in-except that my "V" is a tiny bit wonky.

THEN took it hunting, where the sights were quite fast enough* for a 20-yard quick shot and plenty accurate for a 100 yard shot.  My buddy took that second shot, and he didn't have any trouble with the sights, I forgot to ask him if he even noticed.  He'd never shot the gun before.  It was an unintended "test" of my gun/load/sights in the hands of another.

Only "problem" is that I filed away the "bead" i had fashioned atop the blade with soft solder (regulating).  The blade turns out to be plenty enough!

Daryl has a few good posts up illustrating the express V sight picture.  I'm done with notches.

---
here's a linky dink: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4501.msg42074#msg42074
« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 07:28:48 PM by WadePatton »
Hold to the Wind

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Regulating new front sight?
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2014, 08:59:25 PM »
There are two things I'd like to add.  First, take a plastic lid from a coffee can and cut a slit in it that just fits over your blade.  Then you won't have to worry when filing, about hitting your barrel and ruining the finish.

Second, when you want to file some away from the top of the blade, I file a very small 45 degree bevel on the back corner of the sight, and then file the top of the blade down so that that bevel disappears.  that way, I only take off what I think I need, and I know when to stop.

 And third:  (of the two things I wanted to say) it's good to have help during this process, if it's just to have someone to hold the rifle solidly while you file.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

galudwig

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Re: Regulating new front sight?
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2014, 09:49:55 PM »
Back in November, 1998, Leonard Walline wrote an excellent article for Muzzle Blasts magazine entitled "Understanding Sight Adjustment."  Check with the NMLRA to see if they have back issue of that magazine; otherwise beg, borrow or steal a copy of that issue for a full explanation of how this works.  In the article Mr. Walline explained how to figure out how much you need to raise or lower a front or rear sight at a given distance in order to raise or lower the point of impact.  He simply stated that "Mathematically, sight adjustment is a matter of simple proportions"   and then went on to explain the use of a simple (measurable) formula to figure out the correct sight adjustments.
  
Basically, there are four components to the formula.  All measurements are in inches. The components are represented by CAPITAL letters in the formula and are as follows:

A = The required amount of sight adjustment for a given distance (or how much you need to raise or lower your front or rear sights)
B = The sight radius of your rifle (or the distance between the front and rear sights)
C = The desired change of impact at the target
D = The distance to the target

What you are trying to determine is the value of “A”; or “how much height do I remove from my front sight to make the ball hit where I aim at 25 yards?”  To do that, all you need to know are the values of “B, C, and (in inches).

Here is how the formula looks:

A = (B x C) χ D

In your example, the front sight was left high so that you can file it down to make the point of aim and the point of impact coincide.  You shoot three shots from the bench at 25 yards and while the group is centered windage-wise, it is 3½” low.  You need to raise the group 3½”.  How much do you file off the front sight?  Start by identifying your “known” distances (in inches).  Let’s assume:

B = That the distance between your front and rear sights = 29Ό“ (or 29.25”)
C = That the distance you want to raise the group = 3½” (or 3.5”)
D = That the distance to the target = 900” (= 25 yards)

Now you simply plug in those distances into the formula:

A = (29.25” x 3.5”) χ 900”

A = .114”

In order to raise your group 3½” at 25 yards, you need to remove .113" off the top of your front sight.

Set the depth gauge of your vernier calipers to .100 and with it scribe a line on your front sight.  Then use a file to remove material down to that line.  Go shoot another 3 shot group.  The group should be real close to the point of aim, or slightly below.  Before you file any more material off your front sight, shoot an offhand group at the same distance and see where that falls.  Depending on how you hold your gun and how it reacts upon firing, you may or may not need to remove any more material.  You may also be able to increase or decrease the powder charge in order to get the point of aim and point of impact to coincide.  

Bottom line: You can use the formula above to determine how much material to remove from the front sight to get the gun to shoot close to where you point.  Then, follow your normal shooting procedures before removing any more material.  Slightly altering the charge, your stance, or sight picture could bring your point of aim and point of impact together without filing more off the front.

I use this simple formula all the time and it saves me tons of guesswork.

galudwig

« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 12:35:55 AM by galudwig »

Bruce in WV

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Thank you
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2014, 10:28:36 PM »
Thanks to all of you who took the time and effort to post to this thread.
Another thing to add to all these wonderful posts:
File on the "long line' (parallel to the bore) to avoid bending or breaking off (!) the blade by filing across the bore. This from hard experience: the front sight that came on the gun broke off at the silver solder line on the dovetail base with the first cross stroke of the file! It was not well made and failed early on the bench when I first got the gun, thankfully not in the field with a big buck in my sights.
I'm sure it would have failed soon enough without that fatal file stroke, but it was a good lesson.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Regulating new front sight?
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2014, 04:21:35 AM »
galudwig:  I started reading your post, and got down to "B" and then scanned down to see some formuli, and my head started to hurt.  I'm sure math and science can be used if you work that way, but I'm just a simple (really simple) guy, so I file and test, file and test.  After having done it several hundreds of times, it is not a difficult process.

But thanks for posting such a treatise on the subject.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Regulating new front sight?
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2014, 07:49:33 AM »
Put the formula into a spread sheet and its possible to just enter the variables and get an answer.
I have a basic program for my old Apple II that will do this and also calculate barrel weights (from when I was building weight limited BPCR match rifles). I put the formulas into Numbers and now use it on my Mac.
Only works on straight or straight tapers. Bore size is about the groove diameter. For a 50 cal ML barrel I would use .520 for example.  If calculates the weight of a round or octagonal bar minus the weight of the bore.
Sight calc will work for any distance and any sight radius or amount to move the POI.

Dan

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Offline rtadams

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Re: Regulating new front sight?
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2014, 04:16:06 PM »
11-17-14

galudwig,

Your "B" dimension conversion -- [B = That the distance between your front and rear sights = 29Ό“ (or 29.125”)] should be 29.250".

Best Regards,

Robert

galudwig

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Re: Regulating new front sight?
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2014, 12:18:22 AM »
11-17-14

galudwig,

Your "B" dimension conversion -- [B = That the distance between your front and rear sights = 29Ό“ (or 29.125”)] should be 29.250".


Thanks rt, you are absolutely correct sir! That's probably why my groups are still a bit low!   ;)

By the way, if anyone is interested in reading Mr. Wallines article in it's entirety, pm me and I'll scan you a copy.  I had to read it over several times before my head stopped hurting!  ;D

galudwig

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Regulating new front sight?
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2014, 04:28:39 PM »
By the time someone gets that formula figured out he could have had the rifle sighted in and several groups recorded.

Offline Standing Bear

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Re: Regulating new front sight?
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2014, 06:43:10 PM »
You exaggerate to make a joke I'm sure. Having used it for 40+ years I know the first time to be confusing but after that it's great. Once you know the distance to be moved you can even use it on an adjustable sight. Use the thread pitch on the screw and number of clicks for a full turn. Bingo!  On a particular rifle 6 clicks = 1.7" at 100 yds. or what ever.  Need 5" movement 18 clicks. Done.
Nothing is hard if you have the right equipment and know how to use it.  OR have friends who have both.

http://texasyouthhunting.com/

galudwig

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Re: Regulating new front sight?
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2014, 10:43:56 PM »
By the time someone gets that formula figured out he could have had the rifle sighted in and several groups recorded.

I simply gave the OP what he asked for; something in addition to "file and try." If I had a formula for equating "a little bit at a time" to "not taking too much off", I would have offered that up instead.

Once you know the distance to be moved you can even use it on an adjustable sight.

Exactly.  If you have an adjustable rear sight you can use that same measurement to raise the group without ever touching the front sight.  Raising the rear sight the calculated amount would accomplish the same thing as lowering the front sight by the same amount.

Bruce in WV

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Shaping the new front sight
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2014, 03:23:56 AM »
I appreciate the formula and will be using it. Thanks.

I work down the road from the NRA Museum and will be going there to look at front sight shapes. The gun is a reproduction of an F&IW/RW era  flintlock long rifle, so I'll be looking at the originals as models. The rear sight is not adjustable, so filing the front sight is the only way to go.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 03:29:03 AM by Bruce in WV »

RPTyson

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Re: Regulating new front sight?
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2014, 07:38:07 PM »
Hi! I'm a newbie to the site and the practice of BP ML's.  However, I have been shooting rifles/shotguns/pistols since childhood.  I enjoyed this discussion because it solidified something I never have had "down" well, whether to move the rear site up or down to get the impact point where I wanted it.
With the reply about the formula, it makes perfect sense to my math/geometry background.  It's just a problem in similar triangles. The "Big" triangle is formed with the distance from the front site to the target and the distance "delta" on the target, and the "Small" triangle is formed with the distance between the rear and front site and the height of the front site.  A/B = a/b

This may help others understand the "treatise"  :), hope so.

I am enjoying reading the posts and learning from all you experienced shooters.  Just starting out with this type of shooting, I believe I am going to enjoy the flexibility it provides.  I'm still getting the powder, balls, etc, figured out and this forum is very helpful.
More to come as I start shooting my CVA, .50 Hawkens, Sidelock.
Recie

Offline crowbarforge

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Re: Regulating new front sight?
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2014, 01:42:42 AM »
Thanks, that is a very useful formula to keep on the bench.  I have a new .32 Squirrel rifle that will need to be "sight regulated".

Offline Algae

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Re: Regulating new front sight?
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2014, 02:09:35 AM »
galudwig:  I started reading your post, and got down to "B" and then scanned down to see some formuli, and my head started to hurt.  I'm sure math and science can be used if you work that way, but I'm just a simple (really simple) guy, so I file and test, file and test.  After having done it several hundreds of times, it is not a difficult process.

But thanks for posting such a treatise on the subject.

Mr. Sapergia, I've had the pleasure of viewing your website, and "simple" you ain't!! ;D
I've been sighting in the same way as you have for many years,
Al J.

dagner

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Re: Regulating new front sight?
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2014, 10:20:12 AM »
  just remember as you file down the sight .it may take a couple trips out to range do to way you look at the sight that day ..go slow and remember if you bench sight your gun at 25 yards most people will shoot around 3/4 inch lower at 25 offhand

  dag