Author Topic: Black powder ingredients  (Read 15358 times)

Offline Old Ford2

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Black powder ingredients
« on: November 21, 2014, 06:58:01 PM »
Some BP manufacturers use alder charcoal, and others use hardwood charcoal.
In most cases we are happy with what we can get.
I have read that pine charcoal results in a more potent black powder.
Does anyone have reliable information?
In general Goex and Swiss are the standard of excellence.
Fred
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Offline Robby

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Re: Black powder ingredients
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2014, 07:30:04 PM »
Fred, I don't have any first hand information, but I seem to remember reading that the Swiss powder manufacturer used willow to make their charcoal and felt it was the best.
Robby
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Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Black powder ingredients
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2014, 07:51:41 PM »
Pine charcoal makes trash powder!  ICI (C&H) went through this in the early 1970s.
ICI (C&H plant in Scotland) normally used Glossy Buckthorn Alder wood for the better, faster burning grades, of black powder.  The wood was imported from Southern France where farmers collected it in the Spring as an additional income during slow times on the farm.  Then as the economy of France improved after WWII fewer farmers bothered with it.  By around 1970 C&H could no longer get the desired wood.  At the same time.  It was the height of the cold war so they could not import the same wood from any of the Balkan countries.  C&H was forced to switch to two types of commercial charcoal out of the Scandinavian countries.  One was a pine charcoal and the other was a birch charcoal.  The resulting powder was a disaster.  If you go back to U.S. black powder shooting in the mid-1970s you see comments about C&H powder being fantastic.  Fast and clean burning.  Then you see data in the original Lyman Black Powder loading manual showing C&H black powder being very weak, slow burning and bad fouling.  That comparison shows the two different powders as a result of the charcoal change.  In 1971 there was a corning mill explosion at the C&H plant.  ICI felt it was not worth the trouble of rebuilding and closed the plant.  The machinery was crated up and sent to then West Germany where it was used by Dynamit Nobel to set up a BP plant.  The powder out of that plant was not very good.  That plant had an explosion and was never reopened.

Mad Monk

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Black powder ingredients
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2014, 08:01:29 PM »
To expand on the previous post.

With 19th century U.S. powder makers.
The type of wood used for each plant's charcoal depended, in part, on where the plant was located.  Du Pont used Willow grown at their plant in Delaware simply because European Black Alder would not grow in that area.  Too far South and on the Coastal plain.  Powder plants operating in New York and New England could use the European Black Alder wood because it grew in that area.

The type, i.e., burn rate, of the powder also factored into what was the best wood to be used.  Du Pont used White Willow for all of their powders into the post U.S. Civil War years.  It would make up into an acceptable sporting burn rate powder.  But that powder would not be quite as good as a sporting powder prepared with the European Black Alder wood.  If you were dealing with the slow burning blasting powder or a military musket grade powder almost any wood would be acceptable.

Then the woods would be charred to different fixed carbon contents depending on the type of powder being made.  For a fast burning sporting powder you char the wood to a final fixed carbon content of about 60 to 65%.  For a rifle burn rate powder you want a fixed carbon content of around 73 to 75%.  For a musket powder you want a fixed carbon content of about 75 to 80%.  If you char the wood to a fixed carbon content above 80% the burn rate in the finished powder takes a big dive and the powder becomes more difficult to ignite.

Mad Monk

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Black powder ingredients
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2014, 08:09:13 PM »
If you want some information on the technology behind black powder manufacturing.

Go to laflinandrand dot com
The Mutterings of the Mad Monk on Black Powder
Black Powder Manufacturing in 9 parts.

Info on the various brands as of about 2000.  Also some powder company history.

All files are in pdf format and may be downloaded and saved to the computer.  A lot of photos of powder plants and their machinery.  Most of the photos were thanks to Jim Kirkland of Schuetzen and Swiss powders.


Mad Monk

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Black powder ingredients
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2014, 08:48:16 PM »
Thanks Mad Monk for the info. Its always interesting.

Offline Old Ford2

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Re: Black powder ingredients
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2014, 08:54:51 PM »
Thank you for the very valued information.
It certainly opens my eyes, as to what powder will give the best results.
I do hope that others that read your information will gain from your expert knowledge.
Best regards!
Fred
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 08:55:52 PM by Old Ford2 »
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Offline davec2

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Re: Black powder ingredients
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2014, 06:18:17 PM »
Quite some time ago now, my daughters each did a school science project making black powder with different wood charcoal.  Now this was home made, ball milled powder, so not professional grade.  However, in the testing phase, they compared the powder to DuPont by measuring the time of flight of a golf ball fired out of a mortar with a known charge.  The woods that made the worst powder were red oak and pine.  Lemon wood made a good approximation to DuPont in this little experiment.  Here is a lengthy post on the old board.  The test data is plotted near the end of the article.

http://americanlongrifles.org/old_board/index.php?topic=598.0
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Offline davec2

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Re: Black powder ingredients
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2014, 06:25:01 PM »
By the way, here is the direct link that Mad Monk was referring to in his last post:

http://www.laflinandrand.com/page3.htm
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
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Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Black powder ingredients
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2014, 04:30:13 AM »
Dave sort of jogged my memory on this stuff.

I should also point out that there are other forms of cellulose that will make black powder faster burning than those made with the highly prized woods.  Trouble is that they are not cost effective.  Germans played with charred cotton linters.  Made some very fast powders.  Could be  ground to sub micron particle size during the processing of the powder.  Trouble is that a retort load of cotton linters does not weigh a lot.  Then you char it and get about 30% of the starting weight as fine char.  Then after cooling the retort cylinder and removing it you must get it into an air tight container very fast.  The fresh charcoal will react quickly with oxygen in the air.  And you have a tremendous amount of surface area of charred linters that quickly begins to react with the oxygen.  Which releases heat.  A LOT of heat!  My lab batch in the little retort went up in flames in minutes after getting it out of the cooled cylinder.

A very low density wood gives a low charring cylinder yield.  Just too expensive to use in a production process.

Then for the best sporting powders the burn rate potential of the wood is not the entire answer.  For the best sporting powders you want a moist burning powder.  That can only be made with a charcoal containing 8 to 10% by weight of "oil of creosote".  Oil of creosote being the creosote given off by woods containing 8 to 10% lignin and charred at temperatures below 350.  (Aging memory.  Not sure if that is C or F.)  While some forms of cellulose are able to make fast burning sporting powders the ones that burn fast and moist are the most prized.


Mad Monk

hammer

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Re: Black powder ingredients
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2014, 07:17:02 PM »
Wow, Mad Monk, more please, I am loving this.   Those charred cotton linters, are we seeing free radicals here?  Never sure quite what they are except that partly charred wood embers will catch a spark easily because of these rascals.

I am printing down those pdf files and will keep them safe this time.

Peter

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Black powder ingredients
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2014, 07:32:28 PM »
Some time ago, I read that balsa wood was used for charcoal. Can't remember where .

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Black powder ingredients
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2014, 08:28:50 PM »
Some time ago, I read that balsa wood was used for charcoal. Can't remember where .

The Aussie and I played with that.  It will make a fast burning powder but not a moist burning powder.

Far to light (low in density) to make it worth while.  A retort cylinder charge would be a very low poundage of wood.  Given a 30% yield after charring.  The char going into the powder by weight.  The finished powder would be very expensive simply because of the time and labor required.

Now for some humor.  During the 19th century the Spanish made black powder from hemp stalk waste from naval rope making factories.  That being in the cannabis family.  When you shoot the gun it will smell as if somebody is smoking "weed" around you.  Certainly not a powder you would want to shoot on a range frequented by law enforcement.

Then with such a powder we could convert anti-gun Bill Clinton into an avid muzzleloader.  Just not laughing too loud at the range when he would claim that he was blowing down the barrel, not inhaling from the barrel.

Then there was the question of the English ships going in close under the guns of the Spanish Armada.  When the high Spanish ships fired their cannons the smoke would drop down on top of the water.  Were the English sailors going in under the Spanish guns to get a free high?  "Admiral, the English ships are demanding we fire another broadside!" "Well, lets give them one."  Cheech and Chong on the high seas?

The type of wood used for the charcoal in black powder may give a distinct odor to the smoke produced when firing the gun.   Eucalyptus charcoal gives the odor of cough drops.  Mesquite makes you think of a good barbecue.

Mad Monk

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Black powder ingredients
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2014, 04:16:16 AM »
...  Mesquite makes you think of a good barbecue.

uh, not around here.  Dang I was with you for a minute and then mess keet bbq!  :o

Hickory is king of Southern Q.  ;) 

Thanks for the info MM.  This is another thread that should be put in the library.  It's not a how-to, but is certainly excellent reference material (which helps dispel myths and voodoo beliefs).  Don't think we have that section yet.

The last time i read a bunch about gunpowder ingredients i came away with the conclusion that I'd try Black Willow.  I'm not sure how i got to that thought, but did manage to keep it this long.  Plentiful and moderate/low density I suppose was my criteria.

It's a nuisance volunteer at nearly every pond and swag and slow stream around these parts.
 
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Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Black powder ingredients
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2014, 05:31:08 AM »
...  Mesquite makes you think of a good barbecue.

uh, not around here.  Dang I was with you for a minute and then mess keet bbq!  :o

Hickory is king of Southern Q.  ;) 

Thanks for the info MM.  This is another thread that should be put in the library.  It's not a how-to, but is certainly excellent reference material (which helps dispel myths and voodoo beliefs).  Don't think we have that section yet.

The last time i read a bunch about gunpowder ingredients i came away with the conclusion that I'd try Black Willow.  I'm not sure how i got to that thought, but did manage to keep it this long.  Plentiful and moderate/low density I suppose was my criteria.

It's a nuisance volunteer at nearly every pond and swag and slow stream around these parts.


Regarding Black Willow.
Something seen in a book on the life of Lammot dU Pont and his days at the original du Pont BP works near Wilmington, DE.  du Pont was offered a shipment of Black Willow and they refused to but it.
The du Pont Brandywine works had acres of White Willow trees that they  raised for their wood needs.  But in times of high demands for their powders they would have to purchase wood from outside sources.  But they commented that Black Willow was simply unacceptable.

I suspect that it could have been used in their blasting powder production but not their small-arms powders.

After the U.S. Civil War they bought large amounts of charcoal out of North Central pa.  After the area had been logged out of old growth trees the chemical companies moved in to use second growth woods.  Recovering valuable chemicals from the charring retort vents.  With charcoal being a near worthless by product.  Main woods that had been charred were maple and beech.  And coincidentally these two woods gave the highest yield of chemicals.  So du Pont started to buy that by-product charcoal cheaply and use it mainly in blasting powder.

The last "wood by-product"  charring plant shut down in 1972 rather than rebuild burned out retorts and cylinders.  I seem to remember the name of that company as Humbolt Chemical.  That plant ceased operation about the same time Gear-Hart Owen bought the du Pont BP plant at Moosic.  The Moosic plant then had to purchase "maple" charcoal out of a company with a plant in West Virginia.

Another aside here.  The old GOEX adds from the early 1980's claimed that they used a specified blend of woods.  That is a play on the fact that these were simply the woods that the charring operations worked with to get a maximum chemical yield.  Charcoal specifications were simply not in the scheme of things with the charring plants.


Mad Monk
 

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Black powder ingredients
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2014, 08:26:31 AM »
Regarding Black Willow.
Something seen in a book on the life of Lammot dU Pont and his days at the original du Pont BP works near Wilmington, DE.  du Pont was offered a shipment of Black Willow and they refused to but it.
The du Pont Brandywine works had acres of White Willow trees that they  raised for their wood needs.  But in times of high demands for their powders they would have to purchase wood from outside sources.  But they commented that Black Willow was simply unacceptable.

I suspect that it could have been used in their blasting powder production but not their small-arms powders.

After the U.S. Civil War they bought large amounts of charcoal out of North Central pa.  After the area had been logged out of old growth trees the chemical companies moved in to use second growth woods.  Recovering valuable chemicals from the charring retort vents.  With charcoal being a near worthless by product.  Main woods that had been charred were maple and beech.  And coincidentally these two woods gave the highest yield of chemicals.  So du Pont started to buy that by-product charcoal cheaply and use it mainly in blasting powder.

The last "wood by-product"  charring plant shut down in 1972 rather than rebuild burned out retorts and cylinders.  I seem to remember the name of that company as Humbolt Chemical.  That plant ceased operation about the same time Gear-Hart Owen bought the du Pont BP plant at Moosic.  The Moosic plant then had to purchase "maple" charcoal out of a company with a plant in West Virginia.

Another aside here.  The old GOEX adds from the early 1980's claimed that they used a specified blend of woods.  That is a play on the fact that these were simply the woods that the charring operations worked with to get a maximum chemical yield.  Charcoal specifications were simply not in the scheme of things with the charring plants.


Mad Monk
 

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Re: Black powder ingredients
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2014, 04:20:22 PM »
I have been reading of the Tree of Heaven. They say it makes great charcoal.

ebiggs1

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Re: Black powder ingredients
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2014, 12:06:42 AM »
   Eucalyptus charcoal gives the odor of cough drops.  Mesquite makes you think of a good barbecue.

Mad Monk

I didn't know you could get past the sulfur smell,

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Black powder ingredients
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2014, 04:16:41 AM »
   Eucalyptus charcoal gives the odor of cough drops.  Mesquite makes you think of a good barbecue.

Mad Monk

I didn't know you could get past the sulfur smell,

When the powder is properly prepared from high purity ingredients you little to no sulfur smell.  If the powder leaves a residue smelling strongly of sulfur it is an indication there was not enough oxygen available during powder combustion.

Mad Monk

Offline heelerau

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Re: Black powder ingredients
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2014, 05:13:02 AM »
Eucalyptus has to much lignin to be much good for charcoal part. I did use cherry wood charcoal, it did work, but did not have much power, about a 5th by guess of store bought black.  In a large quantity I did fire off a mortar, and it did go well then.  Tried in both Navy colt and long rifle, but as earlier stated not good enough. I have some willow that I will charcoal and see how much difference that makes. I gather the temp for the retort is fairly critical.

Cheers

Gordon
Keep yor  hoss well shod an' yor powdah dry !

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Black powder ingredients
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2014, 06:01:31 AM »
Eucalyptus has to much lignin to be much good for charcoal part. I did use cherry wood charcoal, it did work, but did not have much power, about a 5th by guess of store bought black.  In a large quantity I did fire off a mortar, and it did go well then.  Tried in both Navy colt and long rifle, but as earlier stated not good enough. I have some willow that I will charcoal and see how much difference that makes. I gather the temp for the retort is fairly critical.

Cheers

Gordon

When my Ozzie buddy was into it he played with various varieties of Eucalyptus.  He found that two would work up into an acceptable rifle burn rate powder.  That was back in the late 1980s and their names escape me.

In his research he found that back in the late 1800s a lot of Australian Black Boy (now known as the Grass Tree) were harvested and shipped to the California Powder Company, here in the U.S., where it was made up into small-arms black powders.  The resin extracted from this "grass tree" was used in adhesives and also as a resin in varnishes and lacquers.  Imparting a red color.

I would question the idea that the amount of lignin in some Eucalyptus makes it unacceptable in a good small-arms type of black powder.  When charred correctly all of the lignin is converted over to other liquid phenolic structured chemicals.  The presence of 8 to 10% "oil of creosote" in Glossy Buckthorn Alder wood is the secret to a true "moist burning (Nassbrand) powder.

The problem with a lot of woods is the basic structure of the wood.  Under a good microscope the wood looks like bundles of soda straws glued together.  It is these tubes that carry water and minerals from the roots up the tree and then sugars back down to the roots.  With Oak the walls of the tubes are two "cells" in thickness and the walls of the cells are very thick.  With European Black Alder, Buckthorn Alder and White Willow the tube walls are only 1 cell thick and cell walls are very thin.  With Black Alder the tubes look more like fine hairs.
This produces an effect my Oz buddy and I used to describe as "grindability".  You must be able to break the charcoal down into very small particles.  In a rifle burn rate powder about 50 to 55% of the charcoal will be 2 to 20 microns in size.  In some 19th century European sporting powders I found charcoal with a portion being less than a micron in size and very little over 30 to 40 microns.  This particle size of the charcoal plays an important role in how fast the powder burns relative to the rates of chemical reactions.  Combustion reactions.  This also has a noticeable effect on how much of the powder combustion residue is left in the bore.

If you look at Colonial U.S. iron production you see the iron furnaces using very strong woods charcoal.  Oak and other "strong" wood chars.  The charcoal strength being required to support the limestone and iron ore in the charge.  If the wood crushes and compacts you could not blow air through the furnace charge.  I joked that the best woods for a good black powder are those you would not use in a Colonial blast furnace or in a wood burning stove where excess creosote promotes chimney fires.

The Ozzie and I had to do a lot of work to see why one wood would work while others would not.  No single factor determines which is best.

Mad Monk

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Black powder ingredients
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2014, 07:00:25 AM »
Alright then i give.  What would be the better choices from the Southeast?  I have access to most, you know just in case i ever start playing with charcoal.  Maybe if i need to feed a cannon or somesuch.  Hard to predict.  ;D

And all that other stuff is fascinatin' too.  thanks for sharing
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Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Black powder ingredients
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2014, 07:06:28 AM »
Alright then i give.  What would be the better choices from the Southeast?  I have access to most, you know just in case i ever start playing with charcoal.  Maybe if i need to feed a cannon or somesuch.  Hard to predict.  ;D

And all that other stuff is fascinatin' too.  thanks for sharing

Hmmm!  Southeast.
A few years ago I spent some time with a guy who was part of a group doing a book on the Confederate Powder Works.  Never did get a copy of it.  They were using a pile of records from the plant they had found someplace.  The Confederate Powder Works used local wood for their charcoal and it was supposed to be pretty good for their charcoal.  You might want to see if you can locate the book in a library and see what they said about the wood used.

Mad Monk

Smoketown

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Re: Black powder ingredients
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2014, 08:57:40 AM »
This the one?

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/24537/24537-h/24537-h.htm

Adjoining this Refinery was the department in which charcoal was made and pulverized. Charcoal for gunpowder has to be made of a porous fine-grained wood, having very little ashes when burned; willow is generally preferred, and was used at first in the Powder Works, but the exigencies of the war taking away those who would ordinarily have supplied it, rendered it impracticable to procure a sufficient quantity. Recourse was had to the cotton wood, which was abundant; on trial its charcoal was found fully equal to that of the willow for the purpose, and was, thereafter always used.

Cheers,
Smoketown

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Black powder ingredients
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2014, 07:11:18 PM »
This the one?

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/24537/24537-h/24537-h.htm

Adjoining this Refinery was the department in which charcoal was made and pulverized. Charcoal for gunpowder has to be made of a porous fine-grained wood, having very little ashes when burned; willow is generally preferred, and was used at first in the Powder Works, but the exigencies of the war taking away those who would ordinarily have supplied it, rendered it impracticable to procure a sufficient quantity. Recourse was had to the cotton wood, which was abundant; on trial its charcoal was found fully equal to that of the willow for the purpose, and was, thereafter always used.

Cheers,
Smoketown


Until about 10 years ago the book by Rains was the only info on the Confederate Powder Works.  Usually described as self-serving by the author.  He had tried some stuff at the plant that was theory at the time.  Such as steaming the mixture of ingredients going into the wheel mill.  That was said to reduce the time the batch spent in the wheel mill.  At the time they did not quite understand that the sulfur and the charcoal in the mix was hydrophobic and would not easily wet out.  In the 20th century the theory was that the great weight of the wheels in the wheel mill were needed to strip away a thin film of air encapsulation the sulfur and charcoal particles.  Removing the air film via an intense shearing action.  This air film was thought to prevent the required "intimate contact" between the ingredient particles in the powder.

The book you would want to look at.  Available through Barnes & Noble but should be in a bunch of Southern public libraries.
Never for Want of Powder: The Confederate Powder Works in Augusta, Georgia

My part in the book.
The one guy involved in writing the book wanted a close look at the powder processing machinery at the restored du Pont Works on the Brandywine.  With a technical explanation of what each piece of equipment did with the powder.  So the wife and I spent a few hours giving him the grand tour of the powder works while he took numerous photographs.  All the time evading the tour guides who had the company version of the process.

I seem to recall something about the plant using cotton wood trees.


Mad Monk