Author Topic: Barrel fouling  (Read 14399 times)

BobBean

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Barrel fouling
« on: December 03, 2014, 12:24:27 AM »
I took my new .40 cal flintlock rifle out this weekend and I was loading 80 grains of 3f for a full hunting load and I am getting incredible barrel fouling midway down the barrel stopping me from reloading without ramming very hard.  I cleaned a bunch of residue out.  Any advice?
This was after just one shot from a cleaned barrel.

thanks in advance

Offline Hawken62_flint

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Re: Barrel fouling
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2014, 12:33:18 AM »
Waaaayyyyy toooooooo much powder for a .40 caliber.  I am only shooting 65 grains of 3 F in my .45 caliber.  You are not burning all that powder, thereby leaving a lot of residue in the barrel.  I would start with about 50 grains as a hunting load and give it another try.  You might even want to drop back to 40 grains and see what happens.

Offline Standing Bear

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Re: Barrel fouling
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2014, 01:08:08 AM »
In several .40s I use 75 gr FFg - Yes 2F not 3F - and can load several times without wiping though I like to wipe each shot.  I don't see anymore fouling with the 75 load than my 25 and50 yard 50 grain load.

Sounds like the ball and patch combination is not tight enough and/or the lube needs to be changed.  I've been using .395 balls and .018 to .024 patch material.  Just got 100 or so .400s made to test.  I have used saliva, mink oil, Hoppe's 9 Plus and Mr. Flintlock lubes.  All get about the same results.

Tell us about the barrel mfg and length, ball size, patch and lube you are using.
TC

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BobBean

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Re: Barrel fouling
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2014, 01:16:35 AM »
that was my guess, I thought it might be too much powder.  I have no issues with 50 grains.
The barrel is 45" Getz if I remember correctly.
Should I be shooting 2f or 3f?  I shoot 2f in my .50 with 90 grains with no issues

jamesthomas

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Re: Barrel fouling
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2014, 01:49:03 AM »
In several .40s I use 75 gr FFg - Yes 2F not 3F - and can load several times without wiping though I like to wipe each shot.  I don't see anymore fouling with the 75 load than my 25 and50 yard 50 grain load.

Sounds like the ball and patch combination is not tight enough and/or the lube needs to be changed.  I've been using .395 balls and .018 to .024 patch material.  Just got 100 or so .400s made to test.  I have used saliva, mink oil, Hoppe's 9 Plus and Mr. Flintlock lubes.  All get about the same results.

Tell us about the barrel mfg and length, ball size, patch and lube you are using.
TC

 



 You must have .016 round bottom grooves to get that load down.  I have a .40 and use a .395 ball with a .015 patch. and there is no way in h+++ you are getting a .395 ball and a .24 patch down my square bottom barrel, I went to .015 because .018 were such a pain to load.

Offline SCLoyalist

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Re: Barrel fouling
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2014, 02:30:16 AM »
3F is likely more commonly used in a 40 cal than 2F, but trying both and seeing what your  gun shoots best with trumps any theoretical answer or the experience of other folks.

If you don't find a load (powder, patch, lube combo) that allows you to load to your satisfaction, you might try swabbing every few shots.  A wire tow worm for your ramrod and some spit-moistened tow should keep fouling under control and not slow down the reloading too much.

zimmerstutzen

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Re: Barrel fouling
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2014, 03:07:10 AM »
Powder leaves more residue when it is not burning under pressure. Too much still burning after the ball leaves the muzzle, or where the touch hole is too large or the patch ball combination is too loose.

Offline EC121

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Re: Barrel fouling
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2014, 03:55:42 AM »
If you really want to see a barrel foul, shoot some blanks.  Incomplete burning is more than likely the problem.  All the 80gr. isn't burning.  We marched in a July 4th parade one time and fired blanks.  I used a patch pushed down over the powder for a little more pressure, and my buddy just used loose powder.  His barrel fouled way worse than mine. 
Brice Stultz

Offline Standing Bear

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Re: Barrel fouling
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2014, 04:47:12 AM »
In several .40s I use 75 gr FFg - Yes 2F not 3F - and can load several times without wiping though I like to wipe each shot.  I don't see anymore fouling with the 75 load than my 25 and50 yard 50 grain load.

Sounds like the ball and patch combination is not tight enough and/or the lube needs to be changed.  I've been using .395 balls and .018 to .024 patch material.  Just got 100 or so .400s made to test.  I have used saliva, mink oil, Hoppe's 9 Plus and Mr. Flintlock lubes.  All get about the same results.

Tell us about the barrel mfg and length, ball size, patch and lube you are using.
TC

 



 You must have .016 round bottom grooves to get that load down.  I have a .40 and use a .395 ball with a .015 patch. and there is no way in h+++ you are getting a .395 ball and a .24 patch down my square bottom barrel, I went to .015 because .018 were such a pain to load.


Douglas barrels square bottom grooves .012 deep. You must not be using dead soft lead. A real tight combo w soft lead will extrude into the grooves and extra will elongate the ball. After that it will push down the barrel just fine.

Have used balls as much as .004 over land to land with .015-.018 patch material.
TC
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Barrel fouling
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2014, 05:38:14 AM »
that was my guess, I thought it might be too much powder.  I have no issues with 50 grains.
The barrel is 45" Getz if I remember correctly.
Should I be shooting 2f or 3f?  I shoot 2f in my .50 with 90 grains with no issues

bbl length and maker are not what we need for guesswork.  and it's not the granulation of the powder..

Tell us how easy it is to load,

or your actual ball diameter and patch thickness. thanks
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 07:09:33 AM by WadePatton »
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Offline Bull Shannon

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Re: Barrel fouling
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2014, 05:55:35 AM »
Waaaayyyyy toooooooo much powder for a .40 caliber.  I am only shooting 65 grains of 3 F in my .45 caliber.  You are not burning all that powder, thereby leaving a lot of residue in the barrel.  I would start with about 50 grains as a hunting load and give it another try.  You might even want to drop back to 40 grains and see what happens.
IBID- I would start with 40 grains and work up from there in 5 grain increments.  I would also swab the bore in between every shot while at the range with an alcohol dampened cleaning patch.  Use 91% rubbing alcohol and an appropriate sized cotton flannel patch.
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Barrel fouling
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2014, 06:26:02 AM »
I concur with Standing Bear.  For target shooting in my .40 cal (Rice Bbl) is shoot .395" ball with .022" denim patch slobbering wet with saliva, neatsfoot oil, LVL, Mr. Flinchlock, or WWW/O/MOS, over 65 grains of 3Fg - never needs wiping 'til the end of the day, and load with 5/16" wooden rod, easily.  This has a familiar ring to it...
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Offline Herb

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Re: Barrel fouling
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2014, 06:19:52 PM »
BobBean, what kind of powder is that 3F?
Herb

BobBean

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Re: Barrel fouling
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2014, 08:05:16 PM »
Swiss powder.

Thanks guys,  I generally range shoot with 50 grns issues but I was trying to max load for deer season.  I'll back down to 50 and step up until I have issues then back up a touch.  I shoot .395 with .15 patch so I might try a little thicker patch as well.
Yall are always a great help!

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Barrel fouling
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2014, 08:44:54 PM »
Bob:  15/1000 sounds too thin to me. If your patch is advertised as 15/1000 I would measure it to find out for sure. All the comercial patches that I have ever measured ended up thinner that what they were listed at. If your patch is too thin  it might be at least part of the fouling problem.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Barrel fouling
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2014, 09:39:41 PM »
For my .40's heavy load I use 60 grains of 3F for between 1900fps and 2000fps.  I use .024" patches and a .390" ball.  80 grains of 3F seems to me to be heavy for the caliber.  But I don't think that's the whole story.  It should still burn fairly well unless your barrel is under, say, 38".  I don't think you're getting anything much in the way of extra velocity past about 70 grains.  40 grains 3F gives my rifle over 1700fps and I like tight loads that can still be safely seated with a wood rod.  The bore of my .40 has square grooves.
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Vomitus

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Re: Barrel fouling
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2014, 03:13:17 AM »
  .395 RB,.022 sloppy wet denim patch,44" Rice, angular grooves,50 gr of Goex 2f,yep 2f, 1700+ FPS. Loads easy.  If a deer steps out inside of 75 yards, KerBlam!
  added:  clean up is a breeze with this combo.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 08:15:41 PM by Leatherbelly »

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Barrel fouling
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2014, 06:32:17 AM »
If you really want to see a barrel foul, shoot some blanks.  Incomplete burning is more than likely the problem.  All the 80gr. isn't burning.  We marched in a July 4th parade one time and fired blanks.  I used a patch pushed down over the powder for a little more pressure, and my buddy just used loose powder.  His barrel fouled way worse than mine. 

It is really not incomplete burning.  This was looked at back in the 1800's.  Without a projectile in the bore the powder free burns.  Almost as if it were in open air. A lot more of the heat produced by the burning powder goes to the bore wall surfaces.  You get more condensation of powder combustion products in the bore.  Not as much ejected from the bore that would otherwise be suspended in the high temperature, high pressure gases behind a projectile in a "shoted" charge.  For every 100 grains of powder burned you will get about 55 grains of combustion residue.  Be it burned in the barrel or out in the open.  It becomes a point of how much of it condenses out of the gases in the bore versus how much is ejected from the bore.


Mad Monk

Offline Herb

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Re: Barrel fouling
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2014, 07:20:29 AM »
BobBean, I thought that would be Swiss powder.  I used Swiss 1 1/2 in my .58 flintlock Hawken and it was hard to ignite, had that durned patent breech.  That is a different subject, but when I got over 100 grains, certainly 110 or 120 (would have to check my records), that bore fouled so badly near the breech that I could not get a ball down after about three shots.  I had to wipe the bore after every shot.  I did not know Swiss 3F behaved that way, but I think that is what is happening.  Goex will not foul nearly that badly, even that much powder in your .40.

Look in this Black Powder Shooting forum back to Sep 3, 2009, "FFFG Swiss in .54 caliber."  There is a discussion of this fouling.

That is on page 44.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 07:38:19 AM by Herb »
Herb

Offline Daryl

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Re: Barrel fouling
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2014, 09:53:53 PM »
I believe DPhar has mentioned Swiss fouling if over charged in other threads.

Consider I am using a snug combination - like LB's but perhaps a wee tighter due to the undersized bore in my .40 barrel, with a mere 65.0 gr. 3f or 75.0gr. 2f GOEX, I was recording 2,240 to 2,260fps from my 42" Goodoien bl.  I got virtually the same speeds in my .45 barrel, also 42" using 75gr. 3f and 85gr. 2F. 

With 80gr. 3f in a .40, you must be running close to 2,400fps. That brings up the question of what good is it if you can't hit with it or re-load without having to wipe the bore?   

The noted loads above are the accuracy loads for my barrels when using slippery oiled patches, like Mr.Flintlock's or LHV lube.  No wiping necessary for the day's shooting. The 2F loads did and do not foul more than the 3F loads due to the tight combinations we use - they shoot beautifully - no fouling buildup - ever.  Taylor even walked a course with 1F for his .40 - wrong horn- HA! He borrowed prime for every shot. His rifle did shoot low, but cleanly as usual. 

A fouling buildup in the middle of the barrel sounds like a rough spot to me perhaps as well as too thin a patch to actually seal. That 80gr. 3F load is generating a LOT of pressure and that means you have to load a LOT tighter to keep the flame behind the patched ball. What do the spent patches look like? In actual fact, it does seem a might 'over board'.
Daryl

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Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Barrel fouling
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2014, 07:13:16 AM »
BobBean, I thought that would be Swiss powder.  I used Swiss 1 1/2 in my .58 flintlock Hawken and it was hard to ignite, had that durned patent breech.  That is a different subject, but when I got over 100 grains, certainly 110 or 120 (would have to check my records), that bore fouled so badly near the breech that I could not get a ball down after about three shots.  I had to wipe the bore after every shot.  I did not know Swiss 3F behaved that way, but I think that is what is happening.  Goex will not foul nearly that badly, even that much powder in your .40.

Look in this Black Powder Shooting forum back to Sep 3, 2009, "FFFG Swiss in .54 caliber."  There is a discussion of this fouling.

That is on page 44.

The Swiss black powder matches late 1800's fine sporting powders out of Germany and England.  Burns very hot.  If you look at original longrifles that still have the original gunsmith provided tin "charger" you see them set up at one grain per caliber.  That is basically a point of diminishing returns charge with the fast hot burning sporting powders.

When the Swiss powder first came into the U.S. I checked it.  Shooting Swiss 3F in my Getz barrel .45 Schimmel.  Started low.  Around 30 grains and worked my way up in 5 grain increments over the chronograph.  At 55 grains in the .45 I started to see a skin of glass-like fouling just ahead of where the patched ball sat on the charge.  At 60 grains the band got thicker and longer.

The fast hot burning sporting powders are capable of combustion temperatures around 2,000 degrees.  When gas temperatures behind the projectile in a black powder gun go over 1600 degrees you begin to see a heat fusing of the combustion residue particles.  Above a certain point the combustion residue gets hot enough to melt onto the bore walls.  While still water-soluble it becomes difficult to remove because there is so little surface are of the fused glass-like deposit to work on.

In working with the Swiss powder I used that point in the charge, where I would see the first indications of a glass-like film, and back off a few grains.

Mad Monk

Offline Daryl

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Re: Barrel fouling
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2014, 07:33:15 PM »
Now that is good information and quite interesting Bill.  I've used it a bit in a bp ctg. gun, might try it in my .45 flinter, just for an accuracy and velocity comparrison test.
I have 1 1/2F - which seems finer than GOEX 2F.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 07:34:12 PM by Daryl »
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Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Barrel fouling
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2014, 02:55:06 AM »
Now that is good information and quite interesting Bill.  I've used it a bit in a bp ctg. gun, might try it in my .45 flinter, just for an accuracy and velocity comparrison test.
I have 1 1/2F - which seems finer than GOEX 2F.

While the tech info for the Swiss relates the grain sizes too the American standard sizes they really don't match.  You would have to look at the actual screen size ranges. 

When you visually compare grain sizes between different brands of powder looks can be very deceptive.  When the powder grains are very smooth surfaced and very rounded they will appear to be a different size even though they both fall within the same screen size range.

Even within a specific grain size designation in the pre-Hodgdon GOEX you would see a difference in visual size in the same size designation.  There were fine lots of 3F an coarse lots.  Same with 2Fg.

A classic example of the visual differences was seen in the old GOEX CTG lots.  That was simply regular 2Fg powder tumbled in the polishing barrel for a longer time.  More rounding of the grain edges.  Then a second coating of graphite made the surfaces appear smoother.  When they marketed the Cowboy powder for Cowboy Action shooting pistols they took regular 3Fg and cut the 30 to 40 mesh screen size fraction out of regular production.

You mention Swiss 1.5Fg.  That size almost exactly matches the grain size range of the old C&H #6 powder mentioned in old buffalo hunter writings.

Mad Monk

Offline moleeyes36

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Re: Barrel fouling
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2014, 05:56:28 AM »
Swiss, at least the 3fg, seems to be smaller grained than GOEX 3fg, from what I've experienced.  I have two flintlock rifles that when I've used Swiss 3fg, they self prime the pan through the vent hole.  This doesn't happen with either gun when using GOEX 3fg.  I have to plug the vent hole when loading with the Swiss powder.

Mole Eyes
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Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Barrel fouling
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2014, 08:37:00 PM »
Swiss, at least the 3fg, seems to be smaller grained than GOEX 3fg, from what I've experienced.  I have two flintlock rifles that when I've used Swiss 3fg, they self prime the pan through the vent hole.  This doesn't happen with either gun when using GOEX 3fg.  I have to plug the vent hole when loading with the Swiss powder.

Mole Eyes

I'll have to explain it this way.

With my work on GOEX back in the 1990s.
3F powder is screened: 20 mesh top screen, 50 mesh bottom screen.  Giving a "mean diameter" of 35 mesh.
Swiss #2 (3f) is screened: 18 mesh top screen, 32 mesh bottom screen.  Giving a mean diameter of 25 mesh.
So based on screen size range used in production the Swiss 3f is slightly larger than the U.S. 3f.
 
Comparing the two.  There will be more variation in size within different lots with the U.S. screen sizing.  You can see "fine" lots and "coarse" lots in U.S. production where the differences are greater than what you would expect to see in the Swiss.

But then you have to deal with differences in the grains themselves.  Compared to U.S. production the Swiss powders are more rounded.  More smoothing of the grain surfaces and harder grain surfaces.  This makes the Swiss powders flow better through hoppers, measuring devices, etc.

I got into this in depth with the old S/A Pernambuco Powder Factory.  They produced safety fuse for blasting work.  Fine grain black powder goes into a hopper on the fuse weaving machine.  The safety fuse consists of a center thread surrounded by a thin layer of fine grain black powder that is encapsulated in a woven cover.  If during the weaving the black powder fails to flow uniformly through the feed hopper you get a section of fuse that simply does not burn.  Very dangerous in blasting work.  So I had to coach them on how they polished the powder to get well rounded grains with very smooth surfaces that flow freely through the narrow opening in the fuse weaving feed hopper.


At Moosic.  GOEX produced some lots of 2f and 3f where the grains were very angular, very sharp edged and very rough surfaces.  Would not flow through a powder measure very easy.  Yet screen testing showed the grain size range to be in specification.  In all of my flinters I found that this sharp edge and grain smoothness thing showed up in how much 3F would come out the vent when I ran the patched ball down the barrel.  You would see magazine writings where the target shooter would plug the vent with a round toothpick to stop it.  Others thought it neat.  With the frizzen closed it was described as self priming.  While other shooters laughed because it would not work in their flinters.

At times I used this to judge if it was time to replace the vent liner.  If I had main charge powder come out the vent when seating the patched ball I figured the vent hole had enlarged.


Oh.  Almost forgot.
I mentioned how fast and hot the Swiss burns.  In my flinters I found that the Swiss erodes vents a lot faster than slower cooler burning rifle powders.  Then I thought back to late 19th century English writings on the use of platinum nipples on percussion guns shooting the good sporting powders of those days.  The melting point temperature of platinum is well above the gas temperatures produced by a fast and hot sporting powder.
My industrial experience in PVC resin polymerization taught me that most stainless steels are easily eroded by hot gases flowing at high velocities.  I spent a lot of time inside the reaction vessels cleaning them after resin batches were dropped out of them.  A lot of interesting gas gouges in the thick stainless steel surfaces around the emergency relief lines.


Mad Monk