Author Topic: slow motion muzzle images  (Read 11659 times)

Offline dave gross

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slow motion muzzle images
« on: December 21, 2014, 06:31:14 PM »
I have been searching and viewing ultra slow motion shots of muzzleloaders as the ball/patch leaves the barrel. In a great majority of these images a tongue of fire and smoke leaves the muzzle before the ball exits.   Does this indicate a patch failure caused by cutting on the edges of the rifling, thin or otherwise inadequate patch material, or simply that the heat generated burns through at some weak part of the patch.  If this apparent blowby occurs in most shots fired just what effect does it have on the ball's path to the target? The blown patch problem continues to bedevil me. Upon inspection of retrieved patches I find that an occasional minor failure does not always cause the flyers that sometimes happen.  The first shot from a clean barrel is the one that usually has a mind of its own and wanders off by itself.  All my shooting is done offhand so any patch problems may well be disguised by my usual unsteadiness.   Just seeking comments from the assembled multitude.......by the way, how much do those ultra slow mo cameras go for these days?

Dave Gross

downeast in Maine

Offline Standing Bear

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Re: slow motion muzzle images
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2014, 06:41:18 PM »
Here's link to Pletch's web site. Not sure if his slo-mo recordings will show what you seek but interesting none the less.  Pletch would be one to ask about equipment too.

Just my opinion. Flame in front of the ball would be due to some kind of sealing failure.
TC
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Offline George Sutton

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Re: slow motion muzzle images
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2014, 07:50:52 PM »
Hi Dave, a good slow mo professional camera runs about $35K.

Can you give me the link that you have been watching? I'd like to see what you are takling about.

Centershot

Southern Maine

Offline flinchrocket

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Re: slow motion muzzle images
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2014, 08:07:50 PM »
It has always been my understanding that the patch is not a gasket. The patch only grips the ball so it will spin with the rifling. If you have a good patch and ball combo an impression of the patch material will be
on the ball. Also, you should see little flat spots where the ball was squeezed against the lands.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: slow motion muzzle images
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2014, 09:14:26 PM »
  The first shot from a clean barrel is the one that usually has a mind of its own and wanders off by itself.  All my shooting is done offhand...

Yes it does.  Modern guns no different.  Most serious target shooters never launch a ball -for score- down a clean, and cold, tube.  I used to throw a "heater" shot over the target in an off-hand pistol match, then put 5 in the black for score.

The only reason to know where your first shot falls is for hunting-when you need a clean bbl for possible extended periods of non-shooting.

I'd rig up a high-bench or some sort of standing rest if you're ever going to really test your loads/equipment. 

Patches wipe the bore first and need to be able to carry enough lube to load properly.  Then they need to =not= blow.  Good ones are re-shootable at least once.  Until a rifle refuses to shoot the combo, I'll always prefer a thicker patch with smaller ball than a thinner patch/larger ball.

current patch/ball combo measures .571 for my 54 cal. 
Hold to the Wind

Offline satwel

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Re: slow motion muzzle images
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2014, 09:31:59 PM »
IMHO gas leaving the muzzle ahead of the patched ball does not indicate a failure of the patch. I've seen slo mo videos of .45 1911 pistols at the moment of firing. Smoke and flame precedes the bullet from the muzzle so even modern breech loading projectiles don't seal the bore completely.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: slow motion muzzle images
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2014, 12:39:41 AM »
  The first shot from a clean barrel is the one that usually has a mind of its own and wanders off by itself.  All my shooting is done offhand...

Yes it does.  Modern guns no different.  Most serious target shooters never launch a ball -for score- down a clean, and cold, tube.  I used to throw a "heater" shot over the target in an off-hand pistol match, then put 5 in the black for score.

The only reason to know where your first shot falls is for hunting-when you need a clean bbl for possible extended periods of non-shooting.

I'd rig up a high-bench or some sort of standing rest if you're ever going to really test your loads/equipment. 

Patches wipe the bore first and need to be able to carry enough lube to load properly.  Then they need to =not= blow.  Good ones are re-shootable at least once.  Until a rifle refuses to shoot the combo, I'll always prefer a thicker patch with smaller ball than a thinner patch/larger ball.

current patch/ball combo measures .571 for my 54 cal. 

A .571 ball and a .54 bore? Isn't that the description of pushing a wATERMELON thru a keyhole?

Bob Roller

Offline dave gross

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Re: slow motion muzzle images
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2014, 02:22:12 AM »
Most of the images I refer to were recorded off various TV shows such as Top Shot, History of the Gun(History Channel) and others.  I now wonder what sort of loads were used in these demonstrations.....they are basically entertainment and not technical endeavors.  There are many Youtube videos which show gas escape in front of the bullet even in modern cartridge guns. In view of this I reckon gas leakage around a cotton patch is no surprise.

Dave Gross

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: slow motion muzzle images
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2014, 02:31:59 AM »
I have a bunch of slow morion of flintlocks firing, only a couple of videos of the patched ball exiting the barrel.  A link is supplied below.

http://www.blackpowdermag.com/high-speed-video-of-a-flintlock/

As to explanations, I believe that gases escape in front of the ball even with a properly patched ball.  Of course blown patches do this, but I've seen it happen anyway.  The shot in the video was of a tight patch.  If you watch closely you can see the patch rotate as it comes toward the cam.  The difficulty at 15,000 fps is having enough light for photography.  We had 3000 watts on this and wished for more.  

If slow motion video interests you check  out other lock videos in this section.  Also there is high speed stills of a patch separating from the ball located here:

http://www.blackpowdermag.com/black-powder-photography/
(This article is a documentation of the process with explanation at the beginning.  The final photos are the good ones at the end.)


Regards,
Pletch
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 02:36:47 AM by Pletch »
Regards,
Pletch
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: slow motion muzzle images
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2014, 02:43:36 AM »
  The first shot from a clean barrel is the one that usually has a mind of its own and wanders off by itself.  All my shooting is done offhand...

...
current patch/ball combo measures .571 for my 54 cal. 

A .571 ball and a .54 bore? Isn't that the description of pushing a wATERMELON thru a keyhole?

Bob Roller

You missed my notion Bob, nothing doing with a 571 ball. That's the gross dimension patch/ball/patch-as the bore sees it.

.0205 patch
.530   ball
.0205 patch
.571 
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 03:45:33 AM by WadePatton »
Hold to the Wind

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: slow motion muzzle images
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2014, 05:57:54 AM »
  The first shot from a clean barrel is the one that usually has a mind of its own and wanders off by itself.  All my shooting is done offhand...

...
current patch/ball combo measures .571 for my 54 cal. 

A .571 ball and a .54 bore? Isn't that the description of pushing a wATERMELON thru a keyhole?

Bob Roller

You missed my notion Bob, nothing doing with a 571 ball. That's the gross dimension patch/ball/patch-as the bore sees it.

.0205 patch
.530   ball
.0205 patch
.571 

I was thinking of the Bill Large way of loading.I used a .575 ball in a .575 bore with striped ticking patch.Short starter + mallet.No good for hunting but worked fine as a match gun load.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: slow motion muzzle images
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2014, 06:04:17 AM »
I have a Goodoein 52 cal with false muzzle that I shoot a 530 ball and 18/1000 patch through. I dont think there is any gas blow by on that combo but would be fun to find out. Cant afford the camera though.

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: slow motion muzzle images
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2014, 06:36:12 AM »
I have a Goodoein 52 cal with false muzzle that I shoot a 530 ball and 18/1000 patch through. I dont think there is any gas blow by on that combo but would be fun to find out. Cant afford the camera though.

That type of patch/ball combination would make a good test.  I wish I could afford the equipment to do that kind of work. High speed video cameras are terribly expensive.  The color one we used in 2009 at Friendship was over $50K.  Equipment to do high speed stills is also expensive but as bad.

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
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Offline Topknot

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Re: slow motion muzzle images
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2014, 09:36:19 PM »
Sam Fadala proved many years ago that the patch and ball will not thoroughly seal the bore . He even had slow motion photography that proved it. It was in one of his black powder loading books 15 years or so ago.

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Offline Daryl

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Re: slow motion muzzle images
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2014, 11:07:26 PM »
Sam Fadala proved many years ago that the patch and ball will not thoroughly seal the bore . He even had slow motion photography that proved it. It was in one of his black powder loading books 15 years or so ago.

                                                                  topknot


All dear Sam proved, was that he knew little or nothing about how to load or the use tight ball and patch combinations required to seal the bore. He was constantly plagued with burnt up and shredded patches (and poor accuracy). That is why he experimented with wads of different types, ending up with wasp-nest in the first place.   Had he learned to use tight combinations like Taylor and I did, he'd not have had to use wads to protect his patches.

Sam used thin patches with quite undersized round balls, usually .010" smaller than the bore.

Thus, when he used a wad of inert material between the patched ball and powder, he ALWAYS got an increase in velocity over no wad.

He thought he was the only one with a chronograph.

I also had one - since 1977 & had already done the experimenting he spoke of, but with different results- no increase in speed with the use of wasp-nest, 1/10" card wads or cardboard.
By that time in my shooting BP carreer, I already knew enough to use a ball only .005" smaller than the bore size along with a .022" denim patch.  I had found some 'brushed' denim in a yard good store and bought a bolt of it.  That lasted only a couple years - 10 yards?

One of the NAPR members from Montana, I think ("National Association of Primitive Riflemen") met up with Sam F., and had Sam chronograph the his standard target loads. Sam was astounded to find no increase in velocity in that fellow's loads.  He wrote it up (paid by the word, you see)  that it was a phenomenon he could not explain, but maintained in EVERYONE ELSES guns, an increase in speed would result if a wad was used as a real gasget.  That a more experienced shooter using tighter combinations never crossed his mind of course as he knew it all in his first 2 years of writing - not sure how much shooting, but was quite a prolific writer then.  His rifles ALWAYS gave an increase in speed with the wadding which proved there ALWAYS gas blowby.  he stated that patches were actually anti-gasgets- his weak combination experiments proved it to him.  He also stated those anti-gasgets even promoted gas blowby and cutting.

Good grief!

If that $#@* is what you want to believe - carry on, carrying on.

In those late 70's, after reading all of this stuff which was contrary to what I had found through my own experimentation, I wrote John Baird and asked him W-T-H Sam was talking about, and John, merely said  -give him a break " Sam is on a long learning streak & supporting his family by writing about shooting muzzleloaders and other guns". "Give him some time and see if he re-learns anything."

Actually, I am still waiting.
Daryl

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Offline Natureboy

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Re: slow motion muzzle images
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2014, 01:33:21 AM »
  William Edgerton made some famous photos using strobe lights, some of the first ever done.  Many are famous, like the drop of milk making a crown of bubbles, the apple exploding as a bullet passes through it, and one of a bullet leaving the barrel of a modern pistol, surrounded by the gasses which have apparently passed the bullet.  So seeing the same phenomenon in muzzleloaders shouldn't be a concern.

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Re: slow motion muzzle images
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2014, 02:28:33 AM »
Kurzzeit (German for short time) is one of my vendors.  They are the masters of high speed photography.  In my files I have several clips of muzzle loaders showing ball exit in slo mo.  Got some of pan ignition also.  Here is a link to one of their compilations that some one added music and put on youtube a few years back.  They never got permission from kurzzeit to put it up there.  It went viral.  I'll try to find the clips and post them here.

Here is the link.  You may or may not like the hypnotic melody:

Offline Topknot

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Re: slow motion muzzle images
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2014, 03:30:07 AM »
To Daryl, Daryl don't even try to belittle me for my response about anything. I was just stating what I had read years ago in one of his reloading books. Did I say that I believe every thing he writes? Did I say that I am a loyal follower of his? I simply stated on what I had read and the photographs that I saw in one of his reloading books years ago when I was just starting into muzzle loading. I thought this site was for people who loved our sport of muzzle loading and not to criticize some one for sharing his personal experiences. I guess proper manners are not to be expected either by some. How sad... I pity you.

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Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: slow motion muzzle images
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2014, 08:48:32 PM »
  William Edgerton made some famous photos using strobe lights, some of the first ever done.  Many are famous, like the drop of milk making a crown of bubbles, the apple exploding as a bullet passes through it, and one of a bullet leaving the barrel of a modern pistol, surrounded by the gasses which have apparently passed the bullet.  So seeing the same phenomenon in muzzleloaders shouldn't be a concern.

This was Harold Edgerton, from MIT, who invented the MicroFlash that allowed this type of photography to be done. Harold's flash has a duration down to 1/10,000,000 of a second.  This allows a bullet to be stopped at 2800 feet/second.  The apple shot went with a lecture called, "How We Make Applesauce at MIT".  I would love to buy a flash with a duration this short; they're currently available for about $1200.  This would allow photos of a ML PP bullet shedding its patch. 

I wrote to Dr. Edgerton before his passing.  The flash was much more expensive then, and the best I can do now is about 1000 ft/second.  Still a work in progress.

Merry Christmas,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline Frizzen

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Re: slow motion muzzle images
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2014, 10:15:57 PM »
I would like to see some pictures of mine.  I load a .454 ball with .020 thick patching in my
45 rifle with a measured .450 bore. Barrel is a old H & H. This combo you can push down with
your little finger no kidding. Grooves are .010 deep so I would have a dia of .470 to fill and I
am pushing down a total of .494. The ticking patch is Teflon and will compress to about .014
So I am filling a space of .470 with total compressed load of .482.  That ought to seal !
I also read the book by Sam . This was back in the early 70's.  I will have to agree with Daryl.
The Pistol Shooter

Offline Daryl

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Re: slow motion muzzle images
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2014, 10:16:42 PM »
To Daryl, Daryl don't even try to belittle me for my response about anything. I was just stating what I had read years ago in one of his reloading books. Did I say that I believe every thing he writes? Did I say that I am a loyal follower of his? I simply stated on what I had read and the photographs that I saw in one of his reloading books years ago when I was just starting into muzzle loading. I thought this site was for people who loved our sport of muzzle loading and not to criticize some one for sharing his personal experiences. I guess proper manners are not to be expected either by some. How sad... I pity you.

                                                                        topknot

I am sincerely sorry you took it that way - no belittling, ill feelings or anything else was intended towards you, topknot.  

I was merely stating that Sam was out in left field when the action was in right-centre.  I accepted some of what he wrote as well, but tested his theories and found them groundless myself.

Frizzen - .006" compression in the bottom of each groove is a good fit, in my opinion. I usually do the same, using a smaller ball and thicker patch - in all my guns.

Monday, Taylor and I took my Daughter, her boy friend out on the trail for a day's shooting. I used the 42" Flint 1/2 stock while Taylor packed his .62 Hawken. Carol used her mom's rifle, with .440" ball and .020" (8 ounce) patch, while I used the .445 ball and same patch in my .45 Flinter.
Carol, brand new to shooting ML's (her second time) had no difficulty loading her Mom's gun.  The combination she was using measured, compressed, .005" compression per side in the bottom of the grooves. Her boy friend, David, carried a loading rod to save the 3/8" hickory wiping stick just in case her inexperience might cause problem. I used my rifle's 3/8" rod on the combo that produced 7 1/2 thou compression each side. Taylor will likely remember me commenting on how easily it loaded, once started - with merely 2 fingers gripping the rod.  I usually use the 10 ounce at .022" or the mattress ticking at .0235".

We only shot about 30 rounds each - David using each of our rifles, in turn and shooting incredibly well, as did Carol - only missing a few out of the 30 odd targets shot. Indeed, she shot better than I, I'm sure.

None of us, had to wipe the bores at any time, of course as there was never more than the previous shot's fouling inside the bore.

I dare say NONE of Sam's proof videos used these types of loads - I could prove the same thing Sam did if I used the same thin patches he used (and allowed no other input to the testing) that created his blowby - however - the loads I mentioned, are exactly the types of combinations that NAPR member used in the rifle that Sam tested & found exactly contrary to his claims.  Instead of pursuing this 'observation', Sam merely stated it was an anomaly as passed it off as immaterial.  It was not immaterial to any of the other NAPR members who used decent load combinations, myself included.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 10:39:09 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline Topknot

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Re: slow motion muzzle images
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2014, 11:39:27 PM »
Daryl, Im sorry man, I must have read your post with half brain or something.  I have re-read your post this morning and it don't read like it did last night. I must have been in a bad mood or something. May you and yours have a very merry Christmas.

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Offline Daryl

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Re: slow motion muzzle images
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2014, 09:45:46 PM »
Same here - Best wishes for all.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V