Author Topic: LMF Browning issue  (Read 15046 times)

FrontierMuzzleloading

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LMF Browning issue
« on: January 06, 2015, 10:15:44 PM »
Well I am ready to brown my cva hawken barrel and the moment I run the cotton swab down the bore barrel, it instantly turned it copper color. What gives? The instructions say not to swab, just do it in a clean even wipe.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 10:52:54 PM by FrontierMuzzleloading »

Offline Ted Kramer

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Re: LMF Browning issue
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2015, 10:34:51 PM »
I've never used LMF Browning but I have to ask, why are you browning the bore?

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: LMF Browning issue
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2015, 10:37:57 PM »
Quote
Well I am ready to brown my cva hawken barrel and the moment I run the cotton swab down the bore, it instantly turned it copper color. What gives? The instructions say not to swab, just do it in a clean even wipe.

LMF has something in it that turns it that copper color and you should follow the instructions and NOT wipe over that copper color. It will ruin the browning action.

I too can't help but ask why are you browning the bore? I would swab the bore with some good bore cleaner and make sure all of the LMF is out, else you will have a fine rust in the bore.
Dennis
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FrontierMuzzleloading

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Re: LMF Browning issue
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2015, 10:52:20 PM »
down the barrel I meant, just a typo.

I just buffed it off and tried again. We'll see what the heck the outcome is. Now I remember why I havent used this stuff in a good 3 years. Birchwood casey stuff comes out a lot easier.

Offline PPatch

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Re: LMF Browning issue
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2015, 12:12:24 AM »
I have had excellent results with LMF browning. Ignore the copper areas, that will happen for the first couple of coats. The barrel will look ruined at first but it is far from it so keep going. On about the third you'll see those areas pretty much gone and by the forth completely gone. You do not have to ultra clean the barrel surface, I swipe mine with acetone before beginning and use rubber gloves thereafter to handle the metal. The process is to use a sterile 100% cotton ball (drug store, pharmacy), which I apply the LMF to by simply covering the open bottle top with the cotton and turning it up side down for a second. Use the lightest pressure you are capable of when applying it, you can recoat small missed areas as you go. I overlap each finished area each time I apply until the surface is done. Give that first coat 4 to 6 hours to "cook." More if you have low humidity, it is not critical. For your second and third coats just the LMF without carding. On the forth application card if you wish, if you do not card your finished barrel will be rougher than if you do card which gives a smoother finish. Your choice. Between applications you can leave one overnight if needed, the LMF is very forgiving.

It usually takes 6 to 8 applications to build a good browned surface, in any case it will reach a point where further browning isn't happening, or at least isn't noticeable. Wipe the barrel down with ammonia, let it dry well.

At this point you can stop for a "browned" barrel (metal parts) or continue to a Boiled Black. If brown is what you want then the barrel needs to be heated until it is hard to touch, then oiled and left to cool. If it smokes some when you apply the oil - great.

LMF Browning WILL work and is a good choice; ignore the copper salts the first few applications and continue to brown, overlapping is ok, do not rush the process. The solution is quite forgiving.

If you want a rougher "aged" look PM me and we'll discuss that process.

dave

« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 12:30:04 AM by PPatch »
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FrontierMuzzleloading

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Re: LMF Browning issue
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2015, 12:21:45 AM »
Looks like its taking now. I used a scotch bright pad to remove the first coating and then reapplied using less. A nice hot bathroom and a little humidity from the shower has sped it up  ;D

Offline PPatch

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Re: LMF Browning issue
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2015, 12:29:07 AM »
Good, don't rush it, let the solution do its thang. You pretty much can't fail. If you have to leave it overnight take it out of the bathroom which will slow the process.

dave
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 12:33:01 AM by PPatch »
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Offline moleeyes36

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Re: LMF Browning issue
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2015, 01:02:06 AM »
....On the forth application card if you wish, if you do not card your finished barrel will be rougher than if you do card which gives a smoother finish. Your choice.....


Dave,

I've also never used LM browning solution.  What do you card it with and what is your process?  Thanks.

Mole Eyes
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FrontierMuzzleloading

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Re: LMF Browning issue
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2015, 05:22:30 AM »
wow the second coat turned that sucker black. Looks good so far.

Offline PPatch

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Re: LMF Browning issue
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2015, 06:02:29 PM »
Moleeyes36;

I card with a maroon 3M Scotch-brite pad cut into about a 3x3 inch square.  You have to knock off all the "red" rust and not go too hard on the rest, just knock the "fuzz" off and stop. For those areas around the lugs and sights I use a small, rather soft, steel brush and don't go crazy with it. One could use 0000 steel wool or 400 grit paper. While you don't really need to with LMF I wear rubber gloves to handle the object I'm browning.

Once you achieve the finish you like you can take it a few ways, turn it into a Boiled Blue (its really black), take all the browning off and cold blue the barrel for a French Gray. To completely remove the browning for the French Gray I use the same maroon pad and Naval Jelly. It is work and you have to scrub hard but you'll end up with a handsome finish that resists rust like crazy. And btw, these days I generally only take the barrel prep to 220 grit, a true 220 until all previous grits are sanded out. I will go to 320, some to 400 but I don't see much difference in the result for all the added work. The example below was sanded to 320.

Browned but not oiled:


Same barrel Boiled Blue:


dave
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 06:05:45 PM by PPatch »
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Offline PPatch

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Re: LMF Browning issue
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2015, 06:07:42 PM »
wow the second coat turned that sucker black. Looks good so far.

keep going but as I have said before do not rush the process. If you do you could develop scale and the finish flake off. Slow and sure does it.

Post some pix when you get'er done, be fun to see your result.

dave
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: LMF Browning issue
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2015, 09:07:39 PM »
Nice work Dave.  To card, I use a roll of canvas about 1 3/4" in diameter and three inches long.  I scrub the barrel with the end of the roll to remove the loose scale.  This will give a matt brown/blue.  Card with oooo steel wool for a polished brown.  Don't card at all for a grainy brown.
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FrontierMuzzleloading

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Re: LMF Browning issue
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2015, 09:18:25 PM »
Looks real good this morning.

 I have some of that maroon 3M pads as well since I use them to buff the stock down after every 4 coats. Much more friendly on a stock than the 0000 steel wool.

Offline Levy

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Re: LMF Browning issue
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2015, 09:39:54 PM »
Copper Sulphate  in the browning solution causes the copper deposition.  Copper is the easiest metal to plate.  Good Chrome plating is usually done over copper plate that is deposited first on the steel.

James Levy
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Offline moleeyes36

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Re: LMF Browning issue
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2015, 09:54:10 PM »
Dave and Taylor,

I picked up a bottle of LM brown awhile back for my current project, but hadn't tried it.  I want to do a boiled blue finish and I appreciate the tips and photos.  If it turns out even close to the one in Dave's photo, I'll be really pleased.  Thanks.

Mole Eyes
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Offline PPatch

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Re: LMF Browning issue
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2015, 10:35:30 PM »
Moleeyes36;

I had forgotten that at the time I did the barrel in my pix I had used Taylor's method with the rolled up canvas. Go that route if you want a similar finish.

Taylor jogged me memory... Thanks once again for tips from the frozen north.

Also; Boiled Blue, which is a boiled black in reality. I used a section of aluminum gutter long enough for the barrel with a couple of inches extra, the white guttering like you find at a Big Box store is fine. I capped it at each end with regular gutter caps and sealed them with a high grade silicone. I then put the rig on top of an old two burner propane fired BBQ grill, placed some thin steel plate over any open areas on top of the grill, do a test fitting before you light the grill or whatever you use. Worked fine, for smaller parts such as the lock I used a saucepan. Once you get the H2O boiling (again, I used well water, distilled water is recommended over city tap water, heed that) put the barrel in and boil for at least 15 minutes. Of course your bore is sealed with a hardwood plug that you sprayed clear lacquer on before pounding it in. That is about it except to immediately swab the bore with oil when you take the plug out. You'll want to heat and oil the barrel just like I described for finishing a browned barrel.

dave

dave
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 01:32:05 AM by PPatch »
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Offline moleeyes36

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Re: LMF Browning issue
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2015, 12:43:51 AM »
I don't have a propane grill.  I have a propane turkey frier, but I think that hot flame directly on the aluminum gutter piece would melt it.  Maybe a steel plate on top of the frier burner would protect the aluminum gutter as well as difuse the heat some.  Or perhaps a shallow trench of charcoal would do it.  I'll have to experiment a little.  Thanks.

Mole Eyes
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: LMF Browning issue
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2015, 02:12:20 AM »
With water in the eaves trough, I doubt it will be affected by the flame, except to boil the water therein.
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Offline T*O*F

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Re: LMF Browning issue
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2015, 02:47:12 AM »
You can boil water in a paper cup without it burning.  Until the water evaporates, it will never exceed 212 degrees.
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Offline moleeyes36

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Re: LMF Browning issue
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2015, 02:58:43 AM »
You can boil water in a paper cup without it burning.  Until the water evaporates, it will never exceed 212 degrees.

TOF,

Thanks, sometimes the obvious is elusive to grasp  ::)

Mole Eyes
Don Richards
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FrontierMuzzleloading

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Re: LMF Browning issue
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2015, 09:51:06 AM »
You can see my results here. I used 100 grit sand paper as I wanted a darker, rougher texture finish to help cut the glare. Now I can do my Hawken barrel next now that I've got a  little practice under the belt! The barrel came out as perfect as you could ask for! No light/dark areas at all, just clean and consistent.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=33690.0

Offline Don Steele

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Re: LMF Browning issue
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2015, 12:47:29 PM »
I don't have a propane grill.  I have a propane turkey frier, but I think that hot flame directly on the aluminum gutter piece would melt it.  Maybe a steel plate on top of the frier burner would protect the aluminum gutter as well as difuse the heat some.  Or perhaps a shallow trench of charcoal would do it.  I'll have to experiment a little.  Thanks.

Mole Eyes

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I have a 2 burner Coleman stove that might do the trick for you. Let me know if you want to borrow it.
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Offline PPatch

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Re: LMF Browning issue
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2015, 04:15:15 PM »
Quote
The barrel came out as perfect as you could ask for! No light/dark areas at all, just clean and consistent.

Good to hear. Having experienced those copper salts showing in the first couple of coats, and things looking a bit streaky, I knew you just had to push on with the job and things would even out in the longer run. Good job, glad you are happy with the result.

dave
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FrontierMuzzleloading

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Re: LMF Browning issue
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2015, 11:20:23 PM »
Browned my own Hawken .58cal this time around! Also bedded the barrel channel.


Offline Dphariss

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Re: LMF Browning issue
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2015, 06:14:08 PM »
I don't have a propane grill.  I have a propane turkey frier, but I think that hot flame directly on the aluminum gutter piece would melt it.  Maybe a steel plate on top of the frier burner would protect the aluminum gutter as well as difuse the heat some.  Or perhaps a shallow trench of charcoal would do it.  I'll have to experiment a little.  Thanks.

Mole Eyes

Its possible to boil eggs or heat water for coffee etc in a paper sack. Google it.
So long as the aluminum has sufficient water in it it cannot melt placed on or over a typical heat source used to boil water/cook.

Dan
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