Author Topic: Rifling stand for longrifle barrels  (Read 6321 times)

DownrightGrizzly

  • Guest
Rifling stand for longrifle barrels
« on: January 25, 2015, 03:03:41 PM »
Greetings gents (and hopefully a few ladies.

I am new to this forum but have an interesting topic to discuss, and am seeking some advise and expertise. I do own several percussion cap muzzleloaders but don't really consider myself a serious gun collector. However I am a serious collector of historical artifacts and recently came across an amazing barn find in the backhills of Kentucky, a longbarrel rifling stand that I believe may date back to at least the the late 1800's. However the style of construction is more reminiscent of the mid 1700's. It is literally crafted around a ten or eleven foot tree trunk that rests on three trestle supports that have a Pennsylvania Dutch motif of fish and heart cutouts. Yeah, I know, I had that same reaction. Fish and hearts?  The trunk and rifling mechanism do look to be of an older construction than the trestle itself. What strikes me is that the incredible length of the piece indicates it was made specifically for rifling barrels up to 4.5 feet long, perhaps even a hair longer. It's also a pegged construction that allows it to be readily knock down (for easier transporting in your buckwagon no doubt). There appears to be a middle support piece missing thus the the center rifling area sags in the middle a bit in the picture but there are peg holes in place and that issue could be easily rectified and put back this piece in usable condition.

I have an opportunity to acquire this piece but have no clue of what the actual value might be or the actual age might be, nor does the seller. I'd appreciate any expert feedback this forum might be able to provide me. I'll attach a few pictures obviously but will apologize in advance that I didn't capture a better level of detail. Unfortunately my camera battery died after just a few shots.

Has anyone here ever seen a rifling stand like this before?  Any guesses on age or value?

Thanks,
Griz


DownrightGrizzly

  • Guest
« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 08:00:59 PM by Ky-Flinter »

Offline Molly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1506
Re: Rifling stand for longrifle barrels
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2015, 04:29:53 PM »
Interesting item.  Hard to peg the age of something like this however.  Hand crafted objects like this were built by people who needed and used them and generally could not afford to buy them. The age may not be as it seems.  How it's put together might give you some sort of clue.  Type of nails, screws, joinery, saw marks, wear evident, etc but even then it's still a guess.  And coming from a deep rural back country area might even suggest it is not as old as one might think.  So in the end, I don't have a clue on age but here is the way I look at it.  If you like it and want it and feel good about having it make an effort to acquire it.  Generally speaking the market for "antiques" is very soft and primitive tools specifically is even softer.  I have all kinds of old stuff around, incl one old man.  Hard to get rid of any of it!  Personally, while I like it, it is not an object of great desire so I'd put it in a medium low level of interest.  That would allow me to comfortable pay as little as possible but maybe up to $300.  I have encountered other objects, equally as unique but still only novelties and encountered prices of up to maybe $2000.  I walked away from several thinking it was just too much and not something I needed.  And missing them haunts me to this day! If you like it....get it!

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18930
Re: Rifling stand for longrifle barrels
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2015, 04:34:56 PM »
It would be good for a museum or working museum.  Unless you have a huge man cave.
Andover, Vermont

Offline drago

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
Re: Rifling stand for longrifle barrels
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2015, 04:57:18 PM »

I agree about the size being a main issue, and that would keep the price down. Not being able to date accurately will be another concern.


« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 07:45:04 PM by Ky-Flinter »

Offline Robby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2608
  • NYSSR ―
Re: Rifling stand for longrifle barrels
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2015, 05:01:01 PM »
Aren't the older riflers formed with grooves? This one appears to have hickory slats attached to the exterior of the shaft (with nails or screws?). That and the handle For pulling give it a commercially produced look to me, at least for that part of it. Still in all, its a pretty cool set up!! Wish your camera had held on a little longer.
Robby
molon labe
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. A. Lincoln

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5275
  • Tennessee
Re: Rifling stand for longrifle barrels
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2015, 07:29:46 PM »

Suspend it out of the way in shop or den or where ever she tells you, but do preserve it.  Some knucklehead like me might try to use something like that.  I could see it tucked away for storage and then brought outside in fair weather to do the deed.

« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 07:45:26 PM by Ky-Flinter »
Hold to the Wind

Offline Ky-Flinter

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7362
  • Born in Kentucke, just 250 years late
Re: Rifling stand for longrifle barrels
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2015, 08:00:14 PM »
Hi ya Griz,

Welcome to ALR.  That is a neat find.  Thanks for sharing it with us.  The under carriage support looks very recent to me, especially with the fish and hearts cutouts.  What are the dimensions of the planks?  If they are standard lumber width and thickness that might be a clue.

-Ron
« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 08:00:40 PM by Ky-Flinter »
Ron Winfield

Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun. -Nate McKenzie

DownrightGrizzly

  • Guest
Re: Rifling stand for longrifle barrels
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2015, 01:02:02 AM »
Excellent points. That's why I came here to begin with, cuz I figgered you guys had likely seen it all at some point. I kick myself for not checking the nails and hardware a little closer but it was getting dark quickly and my wife was itchy to get home. Ron, your point about the lumber dimensions is another excellent point. My first home was built in the 1930;s back when a 2x4 actually measured 2 by 4. Unfortunately this rifling stand is a good hour's drive away so it may take me awhile to get back over there to check out. But I'll keep the group apprised of what happens here.
Thanks.
Griz

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: Rifling stand for longrifle barrels
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2015, 01:09:03 AM »
It is obvious to me that the stand is added.   I have rarely seen stands with these type of backwoods rifling machines.   They would have been clamped across saw horses to use and then stood up in the corner of the shop when not in use.   The headstock needs to be knocked back down in the base.   I would gladly pay $200-$300 for the machine and then discard the stand and stand the machine in the corner of my shop where it should be.   Actually,   I wouldn't take the stand with me.   I would just take the machine as it was originally made.   The current owner could use the stand as firewood as far as I am concerned.   You can consider this an offer if the machine is within a days drive of Mechanicsville, VA. 

« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 01:12:22 AM by Mark Elliott »

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5275
  • Tennessee
Re: Rifling stand for longrifle barrels
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2015, 02:46:58 AM »
I like the hearts and fishes stand. No i don't want it. Think Mark has it right.

Spells out "Love Fishin'" to me, and I do loves me some fishin' and the eatin' of the fishes.  ;D
 

(yes i know these symbols have other meanings)

Hold to the Wind

Offline smokinbuck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2960
Re: Rifling stand for longrifle barrels
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2015, 04:51:50 AM »
I've got to agree with Robby and Mark, on both counts. I have one that came out of a shop in Huntington WV, along with freshing heads and a rifle out of the same shop. The machine probably pre dates the rifle (dated 1883) by at least 50 years. I base that on the construction of the machine. Unless they are documented it's going to be any body's guess. Storage and display are a problem, mine's over 8' long. Anyone wants pics, let me know.
Mark
Mark

Offline Steve Bookout

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 332
  • AF & AM, #59
    • Toad Hall Rifleshop
Re: Rifling stand for longrifle barrels
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2015, 09:26:11 AM »
     In my studies over the past 20 years of 150+ rifling machines, and replicating some of those "different' components, I feel that the rifler is 1880s to 1890s because of certain of those features appearing to be exhibited.  Most of the benches I've found in the "back woods" have displayed grooves on the worms, but not always.  In fact a few do not have worms at all, but twisted planks.  They are also quite often large, rather clunky looking, and or crudely built.  Looks are deceiving as they work like a charm.  It is far easier and quicker to cut a groove than perform the reverse operation.
      Regardless, your find is outstanding, to say the least.   Providing the unit is complete and not heavily damaged, it might be worth $450, but realistically, more like $300 to 350.  Really clean and well kept benches have hit as high as $900.  Some are worth more.  Example, the bench that Hacker Martin used.  Here's a photo of him taken in 1969, that I have hanging on my wall of him (taken not too awfully long before he passed away) working his bench.

 

     I believe the bench has a slight European influence, but was built here. Personally, I'd love to be able to try the bench out to see how she performs as I'll bet that style of worm travels very smoothly and quietly.  It might be a tad harder to un-jam when stuck, though.  Good find.  Just put David Rase's bench on my website.  www.toadhallrifleshop.com
Steve Bookout, PhD, CM, BSM
University of South Viet Nam
Class of 1969
Class of 1970
Class of 1971

Offline Steve Bookout

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 332
  • AF & AM, #59
    • Toad Hall Rifleshop
Re: Rifling stand for longrifle barrels
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2015, 09:36:51 AM »
P.S.,
     I have a letter from Hacker's cousin that he went looking for the rifling worm.  It was found later holding up the roof on a hog house!
Steve Bookout, PhD, CM, BSM
University of South Viet Nam
Class of 1969
Class of 1970
Class of 1971

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Rifling stand for longrifle barrels
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2015, 08:02:53 PM »
The twist on the guide is too fast for ball projectiles, I'd guess it's more appropriate for bullet barrels.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.