Doebler rifle

[hoof]

After literally decades of looking my father was able to buy this rifle built by Henry Doebler.  Henry is my great-great-great grandfather.  Henry's son Charles is the first in my line of Charles Doebler's that my son is now a member of.  Dad gave the rifle to me with the stipulation that it "stay in the family."  Any comments or information is appreciated.  While I have a lot of guns, and even do some amateur gunsmithing primarily on vintage side by sides I know very little about this era of rifles.
Thank you,
Charles Doebler

 

[C. Cash]

Wow....to have a rifle built by your 3x Great Grandfather.  What a family treasure.  Where did he hail from?

[hoof]

New Berlin, although I have been told he worked a few years in Mifflinburg.  Somewhere I read that he may have apprenticed with the Dreisbachs from Lewisburg?
CHAZ

[JDK]

Linn's "Annals of Buffalo Valley, Pennsylvania, 1755-1855" has John Dreisbach, son of Martin, having his shop in Mifflinburg, PA.

Go to the main page of this site, lower section, and see the tab "Gallery - Schools of the Upper Susquehanna"

Listings for gunsmiths whose last names started with "C-E" will lead you to this page: http://hurricanenordgallery.com/index.php?topic=17.msg23#msg23

You will find both Doebler and Dreisbach there.

This resource is invaluable as there is so little else published on the Upper Susquehanna guns.  Enjoy, J.D.

[Nate McKenzie]

Are you sure it was always flint? The shape of the lock plate and one lock bolt usually means percussion.  The pitting in front of the cock seems to be percussion cap erosion. The shape and style and size of cock seems to be too large and too early for this era.

[Loudy]

Charles,

Congratulations to your family on acquiring this great heirloom.  It's a tangible connection to your ancestors.  Below is what I have in my files regarding gunsmith Henry Doebler.  Hope you find the information of interest.  Thank you for posting photos of your rifle.  Very nice example of the style of rifles made in Union/Snyder County area.    

Mark Loudenslager

John “Henry” Doebler (or Deobler)
Born:   December 5, 1809 Mifflinburg, Union County, Pennsylvania
Died:   May 15, 1892 New Berlin, Union County, Pennsylvania
Buried:  May 18, 1892 Union Cemetery, New Berlin, Union County, Pennsylvania

John “Henry” Doebler was the son of Henry Anthony Doebler born March 15, 1785 in Stouchburg, Berks County, Pennsylvania, and Catharina Lebkicher Doebler, born November 11, 1791.  Catharina was the daughter of Michael Lebkicher, born March 19, 1759 in Berks County, Pennsylvania.  John Henry Doebler married Mary Amelia Starr (1813-1880).  He died in 1892 in New Berlin, Pennsylvania.  Henry Doebler is listed in the Union County tax records as a gunsmith in Mifflinburg in 1832, 1835, and in New Berlin Borough in 1838 to 1860.  Henry Doebler is known to have signed his rifles “H.D.” on the top flat of the barrel.  A nice rifle attributed to Henry Doebler is on display at the Lycoming County Historical Society in Williamsport, Pennsylvania.  

1850 Federal Census, Pennsylvania, Union County, New Berlin Borough
Henry Doebler, age 40 “Gunsmith”; Amelia, age 36; Catherina, age 12; Mary, age 10;  Sarah A., age 8; Michael, age 6; Lorrisa, age 4; Jacob W., age 2; Jane, age 4 months.

1860 Federal Census, PA, Union Co., New Berlin Borough, New Berlin P.O., p. 14
Henry Doebler, age 53, occupation “Gunsmith”, b. PA; Amelia, age 46; Louisa, age 14; Jacob, age 11; Amelia S., age 9; Henry, age 7; George W., age 5.

1870 Federal Census, Pennsylvania, Union Co., New Berlin Borough, New Berlin P.O.
Henry Dabler, age 60, occupation “Farm Laborer”, b. PA; Amelia, age 57, b. PA; George W., age 15, b. PA.

1880 Federal Census, Pennsylvania, Union Co., New Berlin, District 164, p. 10
Henry Deobler, age 70, occupation “Gunsmith”, b. PA; Amelia, age 66, “Wife”, b. PA; Amelia J., “Daughter”, age 29.
    

[hoof]

Are you sure it was always flint? The shape of the lock plate and one lock bolt usually means percussion.  The pitting in front of the cock seems to be percussion cap erosion. The shape and style and size of cock seems to be too large and too early for this era.

I am not sure about anything?  My family just got the gun a little while ago and have no idea what happened to it in the last 150+ years.  I do find it odd that anyone would convert from percussion to flint?
CHAZ

I have a very good family tree, I will have to break it out and see if I can get a complete list of the children.  I might be a generation off with Charles, I am going by memory.

[Loudy]

Charles,
Does your rifle have a clear signature on the top barrel flat?  If so, would it be possible to get a photo?  What is the length of the barrel and approx. bore size? 
Thanks,
Mark

[hoof]

I pulled out the family history I have (written by a Doebler from out of state, dated 1975) and J. Henry and Mary Amelia (Starr) Doebler have 12 children listed;
B. Franklin
Anthony Wayne
Catharine
Mary E.
Sarah A.
Michael
Louisa
Jacob
Amelia Jane
Susannah
Henry (Harry)
George W.

I  thought that the line of Charles Doebler's started with Henry's children, but B. Franklin is my "line."  My great great grandfather was Charles Luther, and Charles Luther was the grandson of B. Franklin.
CHAZ
 

[hoof]

Charles,
Does your rifle have a clear signature on the top barrel flat?  If so, would it be possible to get a photo?  What is the length of the barrel and approx. bore size? 
Thanks,
Mark

Just HD, I will take pictures.  Barrel is 39" and I can't mic the bore, seven groove rifling that is very deep, I don't know how to measure it.
CHAZ

[Loudy]

Charles,

Thank you for the additional information.  If possible, I would also be interested to see photos of the barrel tang and lower entry pipe.  Great rifle. 

Mark   

[Dennis Glazener]

Just HD, I will take pictures.  Barrel is 39" and I can't mic the bore, seven groove rifling that is very deep, I don't know how to measure it.
CHAZ

If you have access to a set of fractional drill bits (incremented by 64ths) gently slip them in until you find the closest fit. May not be completely accurate but fairly close.
Dennis

[Nate McKenzie]

I just re-read my post and it sounds mean! Sorry, I didn't mean it that way. Its a great rifle with very good craftsmanship and a wonderful family heirloom.  Boy, I'd hate to have to inlet that patchbox. This Upper Susquehanna style is one of my favorites. Why don't you submit it to the museum on this site.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?board=21.0

[JDK]

........I do find it odd that anyone would convert from percussion to flint?
CHAZ

Unfortunately it was a common practice in the not so distant past as some sellers realized that antique original flintlock mounted guns generally sell for considerably more than similar percussion fired ones.

I agree with Nate's observations, but none the less it is one fine Upper Susquehanna rifle and quite an heirloom.  Enjoy, J.D.

[bama]

Congratulations on having such a fine rifle made by your ancestor. Your father is to be commened not only for having a notable gunsmith in his family but also for being knowledgeable
enough to obtain such a fine rifle and as as a caring father. My hat is off to him. Enjoy your rifle sir and treasure it.

[oakridge]

I'd like to echo the comments about your rifle. Keep it in the family and hand it down, along with the history of your ancestor that made it. We can't all be that lucky. I've done exhaustive research on my family and haven't found a single gunsmith. All my ancestors were wealthy planters and merchants, governors, and military generals.    Why can't I find just one gunsmith? 

[BJH]

Holy schnikey that's a nice upper susquehanna rifle! BJH

[hoof]

I will absolutely bring her over to "meet you" BJ, just haven't gotten around to it yet.
I would like to build a "bench replica" and guess who is going to be the guy I talk to about that?
CHAZ

[hoof]

A few of the pictures requested;



CHAZ

[490roundball]

Chaz - welcome-

glad you took the invitation to join over here and post your heirloom,  I knew this group could help you out

[hoof]

I took the gun over for BJ to look it over yesterday, and it appears that the gun was absolutely converted from percussion to flintlock at some point.  I took no offense to being told that it may have been converted.  That information is exactly why I posted here, I know very little about these rifles and want to learn.  BJ gave me some ideas as to how I can build a bench replica of this rifle, and I might just give it a shot.  I have some amateur gunsmithing experience, having restored several old side by side shotguns.  Having a gunsmith like BJ as a friend certainly is a comforting safety net to keep me from doing anything stupid.
CHAZ
 

[Loudy]

Charles,
If you plan to build a bench copy of your H.D. rifle you may want to consider checking out parts from David Keck at Knob Mountain.  He offers a pre-carve stock and castings for a John Dreisbach style longrifle.  These parts will give you a good starting point.  I've built a few Union/Snyder County school longrifles myself.  Finding appropriate castings was a challenge.  Good luck.  Should be a fun and rewarding project.
Mark
 
http://www.knobmountainmuzzleloading.com/stocks.html

[hoof]

That is exactly who BJ suggested.  I checked out his website and it looks like the castings are pretty close to what is on my rifle.  As you said he also has a barrel/stock parts kit that is very like what I have. 
CHAZ