Author Topic: Nick and Dot  (Read 14775 times)

Offline Mike Brooks

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Nick and Dot
« on: February 25, 2015, 09:26:56 PM »
I should do a tutorial on how to cut a proper english nick and dot border like the old timers did some day. It's simple and fast once you get the hang of it. I't would have to be video to really see how to do it. Now if I could figure out how to do video..... ::)
This is sorta how they looked, but you can't see the dots so well on this one as they were kind of antiqued away. :P


This one may show the dots clearer.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2023, 12:03:02 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Nick and Dot
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2015, 10:29:16 PM »
Mike, I split this out, because it should really be its own topic. One of our experts will help you with the video part.

I, for one, would like to see how you cut these so evenly.
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Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Nick and Dot
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2015, 11:03:05 PM »
I think it requires the ability to rub your tummy, pat your head, and chew gum at the same time.   I have never been able to do that, but I keep trying to do a correct nick and dot.    ;)

Offline cmac

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Re: Nick and Dot
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2015, 11:17:23 PM »
I would be very interested in this video. I have had a very hard time with this pattern. I'm sure some of this is having very sharp tools but also the correct method

Offline tallbear

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Re: Nick and Dot
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2015, 11:33:53 PM »
Mike a tutorial will be great.You're cutting it with a flat graver I believe.I can do it but it does'nt look anywhere as neat as yours which is why I chickened out and used Shippers technique on mine..Any tips and tricks would be appreciated.

Mitch

Offline Curtis

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Re: Nick and Dot
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2015, 02:03:13 AM »
I would love to watch the tutorial if you can get one put together, Mike!

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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Nick and Dot
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2015, 02:09:23 AM »
I use a flat graver, technique learned from jerry Huddleston. It works very well, but YOU HAD BETTER PAY ATTENTION 100% of the time. Practice, practice and more practice. I am not very good at it.

I agree much original engraving work is not great, but the overall effect is good.

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Offline smart dog

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Re: Nick and Dot
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2015, 04:03:13 AM »
Hi,
This nick and dot was done mostly with a small flat.  Along with the rouletting, it is a pretty close copy of engraving on an original pair of Wogdon dueling pistols.

dave


« Last Edit: September 11, 2023, 12:21:56 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Nick and Dot
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2015, 09:23:04 PM »
I think it should be mentioned, that using a flat chisel to cut the "nick and dot" is not the only historically correct method used.  Cuts made perpendicular to the line to create the triangle is a historically accurate method.  Not on English work from what I've seen, however.  I've seen this method used on a some American longrifles and some French work.

Jim

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Nick and Dot
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2015, 01:35:29 AM »
For those using the flat graver,  what width do you usually use?

Offline kutter

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Re: Nick and Dot
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2015, 01:45:16 AM »
Don't try and over think origins or what nationality may have produced the cut in one way or another.
It's a simple basic engravers cut going back to forever and was used on everything.

Engraving is a very personal challenge and trade. You accomplish things by finding a way to get a final result that is acceptable to the market and customers.

Flat graver powered by a chasing hammer is probably the common method.  A flat not much wider than the height of the 'nick' usually work best  if for nothing more than not cutting one too high. But really,  as long as the flat is wide enough to give you the correct height it'll do.

Some people cut a border line first and let the tipped on it's edge flat ride that border,,tipping the flat over on a nicely timed cadence of hammer taps. That leaves an evenly spaced pattern as well as the tool travels from one cut to the other.
The taps vary in power as the flat enters and exits the cut so as to leave a clean triangle appearing chip w/o a ragged forward edge. Takes some practice.  Try both 'sides' of the cut,,one may be more comfortable than the other for you.
By sides I mean rolling the tool forward to make the cut (nick is above the border on the work),,or rolling the tool back towards you to make the cut (nick is below the border on the work).
Just turn the work around in the vise to place it in the position where it's most comfort to cut.

Some don't bother with the border line cut. Prefering to use only a lightly scribed guide line instead. The same technique is used but  the flat traveling from cut to cut leaves a very light line instead and many prefer it to  the heavier border.  I usually do the border this way.

The nick can be cut with a 'graver (by hand power) and is very often. It's not all that troubling to do in brass, silver, ect and even in steel if the size is kept reasonable, it's surprising how much material can be removed. Extreme depth is not necessarily needed,,just uniformity.
Some using this method make two separate opposing cuts for each nick. One clean 1/2 of the triangle from each side meeting in the middle. Sort of like chip carving I guess.
Very elegant looking especially on silver,gold, ect and when the tool is highly polished leaving the cut surface equally done.
Again, most just go about it spacing by eye. But I've known some that laboriously (it seems) layout the cuts first and then cut. I certainly can't fault their work and as I said up front,,it is their way of getting the desired result.

Another way is cutting the nick from outside the border with a V tool, perpendicular to it and ending with the base of the cut at the border. I've seen that occasionaly on some Parker shotguns. Who knows who cut them. It's just another way of doing the job.

The dot of the nick & dot is usually done afterwards with a small V or even the same flat that the nick portion was cut. With or w/o a guideline,,go back down the line of cuts and pull a tiny chip out betw each one. Keeping them equal in size and visually equal in distance from the baseline is important for the final look.

I used to use a flat graver for this cut,  ,in fact long ago I used to use a flat for most all my cutting by the same method,,tipping it up on one of it's points to cut a line.  I could make thin or thick lines by mearly laying the tool over a little as I cut. My very early way of tackling my inability to properly sharpen a V tool.
It's still not a bad way for the occasional engraver to get at it.

Now I use the V tool (finally learned to sharpen one right!) to cut lines.
I use the same V tool to cut the nick & dot border. One side of a V tool is a flat graver edge after all.
It works for me,,it may or may not for you.
I'm surely not the first to do this but the point is that most anything and everything has been done in the trade to get results.

Early apprentices may have been beaten into submission to do things a certain way, but freedom of their own ways and techniques takes over once they're on their own no matter where they are.

Just my thoughts.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 01:53:23 AM by kutter »

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Nick and Dot
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2015, 01:56:59 AM »
Maybe I should re-phrase...  Cutting the nick and dot with a v-tool perpendicular to the border line creates an effect that is to my eye different than that which I've seen on 18th century English work.  I feel the standard was either using a flat or v-tool cutting parallel to the border line.  Sure, there will always be exceptions, but I believe this was the overwhelming standard process used.  These things do matter and considering process relative to place and time of manufacture IS important to myself and many others.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Nick and Dot
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2015, 02:13:12 AM »
I learned how to do it from the late Lynton Mackenzie and latter was refined by Bruce LePage. Mac kenzie may have a video on it, I don't know. I have used a 3/32" square sharpened in a wedge shape and it works well. these days I use a monster flat die sinker's chisel. I cut a line to follow first then place the chisel corner in the groove and dive it in and out with a hammer...I suppose easier said than done. You know when yuo have it liked when you can use the left corner to do one side and the right corner to do the other...some days are good and some not so great. ::)

Thanks for breaking this out, I hated to botch up Mtich's post and fine job he did on his English fowling gun, just saw an angle to teach is all.

When I watched lynton cut his dots with a hand graver. he could pierce a piece of paper held near by  with the divot he removed......I usually end up stabbing myself somehow...... ::)
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: Nick and Dot
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2015, 03:08:52 AM »
Smart dog's example is as good as it gets.  It is also a perfect example of what I meant when I said the pattern varies .
 Notice that the knicks sort of form a wavy look rather than just little pyramids.  That is one standard variation.  The dots can also vary. sometimes the dots look like small pyramids themselves.  At other times that just look like a dot or anything in between.
A compitant engraver should be able to cut this pattern upside down or backwards with equal ease because there are  places where it cannot be done right side up or from right to left.  There are some  secrets  to cutting this pattern easier.  Smart Dog's English engraving is dead on the money for that period.  I am impressed.  Who is this guy?
 
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Nick and Dot
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2015, 03:30:12 AM »
Thank you Jerry,
I am just an amateur, but I try really hard.  I more or less cut a nick and dot the way Lynton demonstrated it in his engraving videos.  The only difference is I am not as fast and I take a little more time to shape the nick into a cleaner scalloping line using the flat.  Also, I do not use my Lindsay Airgraver for this.  I do it with a hammer and chisel.  I could never make a living at it because I am just too slow.

dave
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 03:32:19 AM by smart dog »
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Offline Marcruger

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Re: Nick and Dot
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2015, 03:37:00 AM »
Jerry, I agree.  Dave "Smart Dog" is doing some fine work there.

I have to ask, what is the finish on that dueling pistol barrel?  It looks like etched Damascus.  Fascinating. 

Best wishes, and God Bless,   Marc

Offline smart dog

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Re: Nick and Dot
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2015, 04:52:27 AM »
Thanks Marc,
I don't want to stray from this thread's topic so please visit the link below.  Scroll down a bit through the comments to where I describe the barrel finish.  Thanks again for your interest.
 
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8046.0

dave
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Offline PPatch

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Re: Nick and Dot
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2015, 05:59:21 AM »
Very fine work on the pistols Dave, and the case and cover are icing on the cake. Guess I'll eventually have to learn (some) engraving...

dave
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Nick and Dot
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2015, 06:10:09 AM »
Smart Dog is a gun weirdo from Vermont.  :D


To Jerry's comment of doing the nick and dot backwards, upside down and left to right, and right to left is a must to learn. Working up close to the bow of a trigger guard or a flintlock pan, one must be physically and mentally versatile. Sometimes holding the chisel in the right hand, and hammering with the left is required.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 06:13:49 AM by Acer Saccharum »
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: Nick and Dot
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2015, 07:58:07 AM »
 Smart dog.
  Slow doesn't mean anything. I have never heard of a rich engraver no matter how fast they are and believe me I know some of the very best.  It does matter how good of an artist one is and the quality.  Just for the record I do my best knick and dot with a hammer and chisel also. I don't know any real good engravers that are fast.
   
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Re: Nick and Dot
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2016, 01:13:33 AM »
Just wondering if this video or titorial was ever done?

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Nick and Dot
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2016, 04:41:17 AM »
 I am an old timer.  I use a flat graver just a little taller than the nicks. I use the width of the graver to gauge the height of the nicks. I learned from Lynton McKenzie. There are a couple of ways to do it but the flat graver is the best and easiest. One should be able to do it upside down and backwards as well forward and right side up. Just my opinion. I doubt if there is a way I haven't done it.
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Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Nick and Dot
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2016, 05:55:40 AM »
I'm totally impressed with all of you people. Your work amazes me . More an more everyday!!!

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Nick and Dot
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2016, 03:18:33 PM »
Just wondering if this video or titorial was ever done?
Not from me, no spare time.
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Re: Nick and Dot
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2016, 07:33:29 PM »
Cool. Just thought id ask. Thanks for replying