Author Topic: Springs again  (Read 10977 times)

Rich Jakowski

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Springs again
« on: March 01, 2009, 12:52:05 AM »
Yeah, I know were all looking for Spring again after a long winter, but I need to make a spring and need some help.

When I tried to re-bend the sear spring I wrote about a few weeks back, it broke. Thought I had annealed it properly by heating to redness and slowly cooling, but obviously one treatment wasn't  enough. So what I'd like to know now is what's a good source of stock to make a good sear spring? Is it best to buy spring stock? If so where's  the best place to order from? Another option would be to look around the shop for something that could be used. Are hack saw blades any good for this purpose?

BTW: I have Kitt Ravenshear's little book on how to make springs, but he's not very helpful on the source of material to start with.

J Shingler

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Re: Springs again
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2009, 02:48:17 AM »
I bought a nice assortment of 18" long annealed spring stock from Brownells. Very nice stuff.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=26219&title=NO.%20149%20FLAT%20SPRING%20STOCK
Jeff

J.D.

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Re: Springs again
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2009, 03:11:54 AM »
I seem to remember someone talking about making sear springs from hack saw or band saw blades, but don't remember the details. There should be some detailed information in the archives. Probably on the old board.
God Bless,
J.D.

Offline Pete Allan

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Re: Springs again
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2009, 04:13:09 AM »
One easy to find source is heavy steel banding strap. I make springs often using that stuff.  The strap I find is not real high carbon so it cuts well with a tin snips and files and bends rather well also. I heat my small springs to nonmagnetic and quench in warm water then temper them at about 600F (blue)
I guess I should add -- Strapping is factury made to be tough not hard as it must bend around pallets and lots of very strange shapes without breaking but for us it must be hardened and tempered to make a spring.  Good luck

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Springs again
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2009, 04:35:22 AM »
Your supposed to bend them while they are red hot. never bend a spring when cold not even if it is annealed. Not Good. old valve springs are real good . Forge them flat.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 04:36:42 AM by jerrywh »
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Offline JCKelly

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Re: Springs again
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2009, 04:58:35 AM »
You are going to put a lot of work into that piece. There's somewhat less chance of wasting your time if you start out with a steel that you at least know what it is.
Brownells is a great source.
Another, for all kinds of metal, is mcmaster.com   Scroll down to last para on right, click on metals then on steel then click on sheet, bar strip
The most forgiving steel from which to make a spring is what they show as 1074/1075

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Springs again
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2009, 05:34:07 AM »
I never bend steel cold unless it is completely mild teel.  I don't care how annealed it is.  Steel is meant to be bent at forging heats, not less.  Same is true for iron, really.
Andover, Vermont

Offline dogcreek

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Re: Springs again
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2009, 07:38:21 AM »
I've heard of springs being made out of things like a prong from a potato fork, annealed car springs, etc. But the most surefire way is to buy some spring stock from Brownell's or another dealer. Also when you're forging the spring, be sure to bend it around a pin or the finished spring will probably break. 

Rich Jakowski

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Re: Springs again
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2009, 01:15:30 PM »
All great info, thanks guys - knew I could count on you.

Think I'll take a trip to my local lumber yard and try the banding material idea. The old sear spring was made from 0.035 inch thick stock.

Rich Jakowski

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Re: Springs again
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2009, 01:35:16 PM »
Also found this information posted in the archives:

"The steel banding also comes in a number of sizes and thickness. It is normally made from 1095 and that's what the better springs are made of. There is lots of waste in this world. We just need to figure out how to use it. Hacksaw blades also work well and for heavier springs, industrial hacksaws are made of 1075...also a good spring material. Just be sure to grind off the teeth. They are often M2 and useless for springs."

BTW: What's up with those dates on the archive posts? This one was dated December 16, 1969?? The ALR forum must be way ahead of the rest of the world in computer technology.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 01:36:37 PM by Rich Jakowski »

northmn

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Re: Springs again
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2009, 01:49:06 PM »
Picked up a lot of pointers reading this thread.  Such as the use of banding strap.  Think I made a Tennesee banana patchbox out of some wide stuff once.  Dixie Gum Works sells flat spring stock one inch wide and about a foot long should you want to include other gun parts.  Hack saw blades vary in metal composition.  I bought some in high carbon that I plan to use for little projects and cut with HSS.

DP 

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Springs again
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2009, 08:40:11 PM »
No offense intended but , Banding material is lousy for springs. You will do a lot of work for nothing.
 Truth is you don't know what kind of steel it is because for banding proposes it doesn't matter.

 Correction, it does matter what banding is made of.  I was unaware that some banding is high carbon steel for heavy duty use. I tried banding many years ago and at that time they either never had the high carbon type or the piece I got was the regular duty type.  So, If it's high carbon it will work. Try hardening it before you make the spring. If it hardens then it will work.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2009, 12:15:02 AM by jerrywh »
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George F.

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Re: Springs again
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2009, 11:36:00 PM »
I see the idea about what material should be used was pretty much covered, as well as hardening. But Nothing was mentioned about tempering. I have heard some use the lead bath method, but lead can be over heated. I heard of others using a steel plate as a heat sink to get a more even heat and using color as their method. I have nitre bluing salts, and their instruction sheet mentioned 620 deg. F. But found that tempering temp is great for breaking springs. Then someone mentioned 700 deg. F, and that seems to cover the problem. I have also read the spring sumerged in linseed oil and igniting it , letting all the oil burn off, but that HAS to be done outdoors. Any body want to comment on tempering?   ... Geo.

Offline Ken G

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Re: Springs again
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2009, 11:43:28 PM »
For smaller springs I was taught to put them in a small container (Altoid or sardine tin) cover with motor oil and ignite.  Let that burn off and they should be tempered about right.  So far it's worked great on patchbox springs. 
« Last Edit: March 02, 2009, 11:49:34 PM by Ken Guy »
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Offline jim meili

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Re: Springs again
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2009, 12:04:08 AM »
When anealing small springs I found it helps to heat cherry red and bury in some fine ashes like those from your charcoal grill. This slows down the cooling process. Sometimes those little springs will cool so fast in air that they are still hard. That's probably why yours broke. You should still shape them with heat.

In annealing I have had good luck with small springs burning off oil. However, with larger springs like main springs it takes a bunch of oil to get a long enough heat to get entirely thru the metal. If you don't get the annealing all the way thru the inside it will still be brittle in there and it will eventually break. Have used lead for years to anneal larger springs, just have to watch it close and as soon as it melts pull the heat source and let cool on the lead. The spring will float so thers's no problem it getting stuck in the lead. If you smoke the spring with a candle first the lead won't stick to it and there's less cleanup.

George F.

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Re: Springs again
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2009, 12:07:44 AM »
The only 2 springs I make are the kick open spring, which gets alot of deflection, and the catch spring. The kick open springs were breaking due to not tempering right, but since I now use the 700 deg. temp, I haven't had a problem. I have made main springs and I did use the oil burning method with no problems.  ...Geo.

George F.

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Re: Springs again
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2009, 12:10:24 AM »
That's a good tip about putting them in ashes, I try to remember that the next time.   ...Geo.

Rich Jakowski

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Re: Springs again
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2009, 12:31:32 AM »
My problem seems to be finding decent stock to make up a sear spring.  I decided the banding stock wasn't such a good idea after all so today tried making a spring out of 0.035 inch sheet metal. I was able to form a nice shape for the spring I need pretty easily, but when I tried to temper this stuff it had no "spring" whatsoever. After heating to redness and quenching in warm water the thing collapsed like a wet noodle. I was able to straightend it out and at least can use it for a pattern to make another. I have another piece of stock I cut from an old wood saw blade which should be better.  I'm thinking of quenching this is oil, polishing and then heating  to an even dark blue with a propane torch. 

The saw blade should have a higher carbon content so hopefully it should make a decent sear spring.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 12:35:01 AM by Rich Jakowski »

Rich Jakowski

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Re: Springs again
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2009, 08:35:25 PM »
Decided this morning to take JC Kelly's advice and order a couple-o-chunks of 1074/1075 spring steal from McMaster.Com.

Should be able to make one heck of a lot of sear springs from a 12" X 8 " slab of the stuff.   

Thanks for all the helpful advice guys.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 08:36:00 PM by Rich Jakowski »

Offline jim meili

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Re: Springs again
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2009, 09:19:26 PM »
Rick, a good source for those small springs are Sawsall blades like from a Milwaukee. if you know someone in the construction trade have them save the used up blades for you. Throw them in a box to keep and they are around when you need them. They make fine sear springs and flask springs.

doug

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Re: Springs again
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2009, 08:43:16 PM »
      I make my mainsprings out of drill rod forged approximately to thickness; for me it always works well.  I have tried using iron banding for knife blades and it was useless --- appeared to be case hardened mild steel although I don't know why it would have been case hardened.

cheers Doug

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Springs again
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2009, 05:00:42 AM »
The recoil spring from a small engine cranker has a lot of small springs in it; all you have to do is cut them out. Heat the stuff to bend it then re-harden and temper when you get to the final configuration.

Offline Canute Rex

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Re: Springs again
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2009, 07:50:36 AM »
 It might be helpful to understand what is going on down there at the atomic level when you are annealing, hardening, and tempering.

Steel is a cubic crystal. Imagine a bunch of dice, all with one spot on each face. Each spot is one carbon atom and the corners are iron atoms. When the carbon is out on the face the steel is soft. If you heat the steel up to its critical temperature (about 1450F - it varies with the steel) the carbon atoms sink into the center of the cube. If you cool the steel quickly then the carbon stays in the center, the crystals lock together, and the steel is hard, but brittle. If you then heat the steel part way to the critical temperature some of the carbon comes back to the surface and the steel gets more flexible.

The more carbon, up to about 1.3%, the more potential for hardness (and brittleness). You can quench mild steel (0.10%) however you want and it won't do any good.

For springs, you want about 0.60-0.75% carbon. My recommendation: spend the money on the right steel - steel with detailed specifications attached. Save yourself time and frustration. Mr. Jakowski, the stuff you are getting from McM is perfect - plain steel with 75 points of carbon.

A useful tool is one of those pick-up magnets on a stick, because steel becomes non-magnetic at its critical temperature. Forget about color, just heat it just till the magnet doesn't stick.

Forge the spring at no more than a yellow heat to preserve the carbon - it tends to oxidize out, especially in small parts, at high temperatures. When it is finished give it one more heat to critical temperature and stick it deep in a pot of wood ashes. Let it cool for a couple of hours. Heat it to critical again and put it in the ashes again.

Now that it is dead soft, grind (drill if necessary) and polish it to its final finish.

Wet it and dump some blue chalk-line chalk on it. Rub it into a smooth layer all over and let it dry. This will protect it somewhat  from oxidizing when you heat it again. The color of the chalk doesn't matter - I just like blue.

Heat it carefully in a low oxygen fire (thick coal bed or slightly long torch flame) to critical and quench it in its designated quench liquid. Some steels like oil, others water. (Others air, but you don't want that stuff) Buy the steel from McMasters or wherever and it should say. I use veg oil for oil hardening steel because it smells better than petro oil. Mmmm - fries with that?

Carefully clean the spring and brighten it to white again. Heat it with a propane torch till it is a uniform deep blue and let it cool. If you want to be really scientific, look up the tempering temperatures from the supplier and get a tempering crayon to match. Tempering crayons are just what you might think - they melt at specified temperatures in the 400F to 1500F range. You put a mark on the piece and heat it the the mark melts.

Well, there's a novel length post.

Hope that helps. I learned that at my master-smith's side about 30 years ago.


Rich Jakowski

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Re: Springs again
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2009, 07:12:52 PM »
Canute,

From extremely practical infomation on building flintlock rifles to examples of work produced by highly skilled artisans the knowledge and skill levels on this forum are simply amazing.

Today I got a very scholary explanation on tempering steel.

I can't tell you how impressed I am with your thorough, practical and very understandable explanation of what goes on in this process. You must be a teacher - I love your example of the stack of dice. As a veterinary pathologist who has been teaching at a vet. school for more than 27 years I know a little about pathology, but practically nothing regarding the chemisty of steel. Your explanation today shined an awful lot of light into a very dark closet.

I just received the steel from McMaster's yesterday and will be giving it a try soon.

Oh, BTW: The ARL forum is a pretty informal place so please drop the formal use of "Mr." - "Rich" is just fine.

doug

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Re: Springs again
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2009, 08:07:35 PM »
     that is the best and most understandable explanation of hardening at the atomic level that I have ever read.

      My experience has been that blue tends to be too hard for springs and on the colour scale the beginning of grey is much safer.  I also feel that a temperature of 680F is the correct temperature and that differs by quite a bit from the blacksmithing books that I have read.  I have also found that quenching in molten lead using a high temperature thermometer gives a more uniform heating than when using a torch and currently use the tray of burning oil method

cheers Doug