Ball Starters Renewed Thread

[Habu]

Having just run a bit more than 2k shots through a rifle, over almost a year's time, without cleaning the bore, I'm not so sure as I used to be about how a patched ball should fit the bore.  Bore is .526", ball mic's at .516-.517 (depends on where you measure), patch mic's at .016" after sitting lubed overnight. 

I pulled the breech plug and looked when I finally cleaned the barrel.  I didn't see any major build-up of fouling on the plug face or the bore.  There was a dark ring at the point where the ball seated, but that scrubbed out with a brush.  The barrel is an old wrought-iron barrel that was re-bored some years ago, so once clean I looked to see how much erosion was there; the edges of the rifling looked a bit rounded but that was about it. 

Granted, my loading practices might concern some folk (though they are based on historical accounts), but I'm almost beginning to think that for casual shooting/hunting, fouling concerns are a bit overblown

[LRB]

  Wrought iron does not rust nearly as fast as modern steel, so you really cannot relate evenly between the differences in the two, nor treat a modern steel barrel as you might treat a wrought iron barrel. If you can detect rounded edges on the lands after 1K rounds, by eyeball inspection, therein lies a disadvantage. With differences in materials, there are usually always gives and takes.

[Habu]

I should have written more clearly.  Once the barrel was clean, I checked for erosion at the breech.  The rounding of the rifling was noted in the chamber area, after >2,000 shots.  The erosion seemed to have no effect on accuracy (from a rest, 10 shots into about 6" at 100 yards, both before and after the test).   

In the past, I've gone as many as 500 shots without cleaning in a rifle with a Douglas barrel, using roughly the same loading regimen.  Aside from not showing similar erosion of the rifling at the breech, there were no other differences noted in fouling build-up, corrosion, etc 

In both cases, the loads used were such that they were easily loaded without the use of a short starter: the patched ball was pressed into the muzzle with the handle of my bag knife, then seated with the ramrod.  These are not "thumb-started" loads, but the only "thumb-started" loads I've ever seen involved the use of Minie balls. 

My point is this: it is possible to develop reasonably accurate loads that permit shooting all day without cleaning, that do not require the use of a short starter.   

That said, it seems that if early accounts of the use of a short starter are sought, early match accounts might be the place to look.  As Daryl pointed out, some of the early accounts of rifle accuracy in matches suggests that a larger patch/ball combination may have been used.   

[Daryl]

I borrowed a book from Taylor concerning English Rifle use.  On the introductory page, second column which is 1/2 way through a Frenchman's (Le Blond) description of the rifles used, "English translation of the day" states: "......it has an iron rammer, and the bullet is first driven into the mouth of the piece with a short iron pin, called a driver, striking it on the end with a small hammer ready for that purpose.   The carabine has a much greater range than the fusil, or musket, because the riffle of the barrel impedes the ball, which by that means makes the greater distance at the first inflamations of the powder, and giving time for the whole charge to take fire before it goes out of the bore, it is at length thrown out with a greater force than from the common musket".

Le Blond's description contains two "classic" rifle features of the early period: a naked, non patched ball driven in with mallet and short starter, and suggests that rifles in French service at the time (modifications of the 1733 Cavalry carbine), were not loaded with paper ctgs.

I thus suspect, that further reading will show the British also used "short" starters with their patched balls for the Baker Carbines. The mallet used with the Baker did indeed have a small diameter 'shaft' not a normal hammer or mallet handle. Was this their 'short starter'?

Did it really take the US until the mid 1800's to 'discover' this tool? I sincerely doubt this, and sooner or later, evidence of their use will arise. We shall see.

[smylee grouch]

Thanks for that Daryl, There is just too much to gain by using a load tight enough that you have to use a short starter to not assume that those interested in acurate shooting back in the day, would not have used one whether they recorded it or not. As you say, further research will eventualy reveal this. This is not to say that every one used a short starter but some did IMHO.

[James Rogers]

I'm always on the lookout for documentation on any questionable  items like starters. I use one for hunting and target shooting but of course not for any kind of living history as there is no documentation to support it for my time and place of interest.
This only poses an issue for those attempting to represent accurate, documented history to themselves or to the public.

I believe there is also a reference to using a mallet to take the ball a palm's width down the bore before ramming home found in "Espingarda perfeyta - The Perfect Gun" 1718.

[Daryl]

James - that is very interesting, for me, a palm's wide is right at 4" .  1718 document, you say - I am in full agreement with smylee g.  While not common or commonly used, I do believe the benefits would be too obvious, to not be used by those interested in fine accuracy.  That one was not used EVERY time, really doesn't matter. A quick shot is just that - if one's life depended on it, no patch or a thin patch makes perfect sense.

 A mallet would need an "iron peg" or one of wood or other material or  projection, to "take" the ball a palm's width down the bore.  That's all the proof I need.

My mallets all have a longer handle and a metal peg - brass in this instance.

[Mike R]

Interesting read and thanks for the link. Six hundred count linen patch would be a very tight weave and strong. Wonder what he wiped the bore with between shots?
J.B.

Tow or patching I suspect...Audabon wrote that he once used up most of his shirt on a long 'trek' [he didn't use that term] using it as wadding [and I suspect swabbing] in his fowling gun [he carried a double barrel flinter, replaced late in life with percussion double]. He was embarrassed to have to go into a eating place upon his return with much of his shirt gone!  Audabon's writings are full of great period info.

[steelsrangers]

hi if you look at the pitchers of the ball starters in the book there repros according to mr newman who wrote the book he never saw a real one the closest thing to a ball starter from the rev time period was a antler handled tampon for plugging the barrel from the weather

[hanshi]

Smylee grouch's comment concerning too much to be gained from a tight prb is something I heartily agree with.  The only requirement is that all loads must be reasonably easy to seat with the wood under barrel rod.  Naturally, a short starter is necessary to get the ball down past the muzzle.  Of course I'm referencing only my shooting.

The idea that tight loads (excluding target competition) were never used earlier than the mid 1800s and that nothing other than the loading rod was used is, well, preposterous.  It can be done but only with possibly rod breaking force.  Too risky IMHO.  This, then, implies a specific tool, method or combination both had to be used at least occasionally.  Sure, bare ball or looser prb loads were fine for day to day use; but what about small, distant or critical targets upon which much may have depended?   

While nothing that fits the description of a "short starter" has specifically been documented into the 18th century, careful research will, I am sure, document a much earlier provenance.   

[Daryl]

hanshi - I am not sure what you are referring to about breaking the rifle's rod with tight loads.  When on the trail walks, most ALL of us use our rifle's hickory rods. We all shoot tight loads and none of us has to wipe while shooting for the day.  Too, none of us can get by without the use of a short starter.  Well, that's not really definite as we could load as Dan does, with thick patch tight loads pushed into the bore with a choked up rod and deliberation, but we've come to use the starter which for us, is quick and easier in use.

[Chuck Burrows]

If we must do everything 100% by the period (provable), then let us first discard our graded powders?

Ummm you might want to check your facts - powder was graded in the 18th Century -

September 28, 1752
The Pennsylvania Gazette

"....brown and yellow ware, raisins and currants, F, FF and FFF powder , shot, lead,....."

July 2, 1752
The Pennsylvania Gazette

"....mens and boys castor and felt hats, F, FF, FFF powder, shot and bar lead,...."

That's just a  couple of examples of primary resources mentioning graded powder - it also came "rough" or unglazed as well as glazed in period.

"glazed and unglazed" or "rough and glazed"---1739

so nope no reason to discard the terms used for grading powder since it clearly dates back to the 18th Century..

[WadePatton]

okie dokie.  Thanks for the correction Chuck, I'm sure I'll need one or two more. 

but now i'm calling my ball starter (i start balls not shorts)

a DRIVER! 

[hanshi]

What I was referring to was the fact that rods that come with most guns aren't hickory and I have broken two of those over the years.  Hickory rods ride under most every gun I own but I will use the builder's rod as long as it lasts.  In some cases that has been years and still going strong.  Still, it's possible to break a hickory (haven't done it so far) rod with a tight load.  I've noticed that occasionally a patch will flip a piece over the ball and seat with much protest due to the added corner of the patch.  I wouldn't try such a load mistake with factory provided rod but have no compunction using a hickory rod.  I have less than "no use" for a pounding load; The rod has to do it.  In the excitement of a hunting second shot it IS certainly possible.  And yes, I don't wipe the bore at the range until I load up to go home.

An interesting note; I owned and hunted with a Traditions Crockett for 12 years.  I used that skinny little rod and when I finally sold the rifle the rod was still fine.

[Daryl]

I see and understand - I've replaced factory rods with Ramin for a test 35 years ago, but went back to hickory right away. Yes- hickory will break, however I've been loading a 12 ounce denim patch (.030" calipers crushed) with a .682/4" ball in my .69 since 1986 - and the rod is still going strong.  Some years ago, maybe 10, I cracked it, glued it with thin CA and I'm still using it.

[JBJ]

A picture of an original pouch and contents (http://americankentuckyrifleart.com/hunting-pouches-old-new.html) (the framed collection of a bag and contents displayed against a red background). Said to be from the Shenandoah Valley during the percussion era but a starter none-the-less in the upper left of the frame. Also appears to be a loop on the bag strap that would serve to hold the starter.
J.B.

[Standing Bear]

A picture of an original pouch and contents (http://americankentuckyrifleart.com/hunting-pouches-old-new.html) (the framed collection of a bag and contents displayed against a red background). Said to be from the Shenandoah Valley during the percussion era but a starter none-the-less in the upper left of the frame. Also appears to be a loop on the bag strap that would serve to hold the starter.
J.B.

I see why it says this is from the percussion era as there is obviously a nipple wrench in the picture but there is a smaller horn identified as a priming horn, sooo...?

The next frame down shows two more original bags number 93 and 91.  93 obviously has a priming horn with it.  Don't tell the one horn fellas.  Oh, and there are patch knives too.  What got in to those guys 200 years ago using ball rammers and tight ball and patch combinations cut at the muzzle?

[Mike R]

As to the bag contents, it is often hard to tell when they were accumulated and I have seen similar photos where the "contents" were clearly not things commonly related to loading or cleaning a riflegun--perhaps descendants placed old items [of varous vintages and uses] in grandads old bag...also the percussion era never really ended and in my youth men could still be found in the backwoods of the south hunting with percussion rifles--not to mention the widespread target competitions [where such things as ball starters and priming flasks might have been more common] using old guns--before and after the creation of the NMLRA.  As I said earlier, there are period references to limited use of ball starters, but NO references to their use by the early American frontiersmen that I know of, and so if you choose a persona of a Dan'l Boone type or backwoods farmer, etc of the mid-late 18th cent you most likely would not have a ball starter [or priming device, or different grades of powder, or a patch knife, or a bullet block, etc]....If you are not a living history buff/reenactor then it does not matter.  I learned to shoot MLers from target shooters who did use all these things and probably have since the late 19th cent.  But I have gone back to the plain way of loading as described by Audabon and others of the early period.  The minimalist way most likely used by the average backwoodsman--except when I reenact the military when I use paper cartridges....

[Clark Badgett]

A picture of an original pouch and contents (http://americankentuckyrifleart.com/hunting-pouches-old-new.html) (the framed collection of a bag and contents displayed against a red background). Said to be from the Shenandoah Valley during the percussion era but a starter none-the-less in the upper left of the frame. Also appears to be a loop on the bag strap that would serve to hold the starter.
J.B.

Everything about that bag screams mid 19th century, even the bag.

[Daryl]

Ned Roberts also carried his lunch in his 'possibles' bag, seems to me, or maybe that was a story about the hunter who tied himself into the tree with a piece of rope from his bag which also carried a lunch?

[R2D2]

 well that myth has been busted. in the book the Encyclopedia of the American Revolutionary War. they have documented TWO ball starters  one with a powder measure attached to it documented to before the Revolutionary war.  so i guess the answer was YES they did exsist. not everyone carried them im sure.
[/quote]

I own that book, and have pawed through it so many times over the years that the back is broken, that being said, several years ago I  was told by a curator at the Valley Forge museum that they have pulled artifacts from display that were "documented" in that same book. When it comes to history, never say never and always avoid saying always.

[Chris Treichel]

Funny this just came up on the Rev War List by a gent asking about a Jaeger Rifle...
I say that I have seen nothing of the sort pre 1830s... Start going through some German Sporting Manuals and lo here is what I find.

https://books.google.de/books?id=UPdEAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA242...

Die Jagdlust; oder, Die hohe und niedere Jagd 1783

 Um eine Büchse zu laden fängt man damit an etwas Papier auf die Pfanne vor das Zündloch zu legen damit durch dasselbe nicht etwas von dem eingeladenen Pulver durchlaufen möge und schlieffet die Batterie Pfannendeckel zu. Hierauf füllet man das Lademaas mit Pulver schüttet es in den Lauf leget das mit Talg oder Fett geschmierte Pflaster Futter auf die Mündung des Laufs und feset die Kugel dergestalt auf daß der abgezwickte Theil derselben nicht auf die Seite sondern entweder oben oder unten kommt so wird die aufgesetzte Kugel mit einem Stein oder sonst etwas in die Mündung hineingeschlagen und mit dem Ladestock auf das Pulver hinunter gestoffen Wir bedienen uns zu diesem Einschlagen eines kleinen hölzernen Hammers mit einem dünnen schwanken Stiel den wir beständig an dem Riemen der Pulverflasche bei uns führen wenn wir bürchen gehen Wenn der Ladestock von selbst wieder aufspringer fo ist man se daß die Kugel fest auf dem Pulver sitzt Endlich nimmt man den Vorschlag VON
3 mins · Like

Well how about that... "Wir bedienen uns zu diesem Einschlagen eines kleinen hölzernen Hammers mit einem dünnen schwanken Stiel den wir beständig an dem Riemen der Pulverflasche bei uns führen wenn wir bürchen gehen"
2 mins · Like

For this starting we utelize a small wood hammer with a thin rod which we keep in the strap of the powderflask which we take with us when we go hunting.

[C. Cash]

I saw Herschel House just use the handle end of his patch knife in a video, and thought that some of the old timers must have seized upon this system as well, since they were cutting the patch in the next step anyway and would have only had to use the one tool.  I've never tried it myself so may be making a fool of myself here.

[Bob Roller]

I saw Herschel House just use the handle end of his patch knife in a video, and thought that some of the old timers must have seized upon this system as well, since they were cutting the patch in the next step anyway and would have only had to use the one tool.  I've never tried it myself so may be making a fool of myself here.

I have done this but it usually requires a ball at least one caliber undersize or a funneled muzzle.

Bob Roller

[smart dog]

Hi Folks,
It just occurred to me a loading mallet like that described in Espingarda Perfeyta might have looked like the typical woodworker's mallet of the time; a cylinder-shaped striking head with a spindle handle.  If that were true, it would look a lot like many of our short starters.

dave