Author Topic: rifle stock shape tn rifle?  (Read 12031 times)

Offline bowkill

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rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« on: April 24, 2015, 12:49:16 AM »
look this rifle over and tell me what i need to do? Think it is still a little thick, but most have a rounded shape on the forend? not got to the but stock yet. Got my front pin in a little close to the muzzle so i cant get my cap on without cutting a new dovetail. thinking of using pewter so i can keep the flared end? Still allot of sanding to go just getting her roughed out.







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kaintuck

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Re: rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2015, 12:55:45 AM »
show more barrel flat ;D
maybe a picture of the RR in the channel~ there might be some to remove down there???
a tad more rounding in front of the side panels, and side panels 1/8" smaller???

I think it looks dang good.........hang it up for a few days...then take it down and look again.......

I always find more wood to remove by doing it that away.........

but that's a wonderful top picture with the flair in the wood following the barrel contour......that's HARD to do~ and I think you did great!!!!!! :D ;D

marc n tomtom

Offline conquerordie

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Re: rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2015, 01:20:16 AM »
I agree with Kaintuck, put it down for a day and then go at it. It's hard to do because you want to keep progressing with the project, but it's better to get it right than to go overboard and have to fix. I think it's looking real good so far.
Greg

Offline bowkill

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Re: rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2015, 02:47:56 AM »
show more barrel flat ;D
maybe a picture of the RR in the channel~ there might be some to remove down there???
a tad more rounding in front of the side panels, and side panels 1/8" smaller???

I think it looks dang good.........hang it up for a few days...then take it down and look again.......

I always find more wood to remove by doing it that away.........

but that's a wonderful top picture with the flair in the wood following the barrel contour......that's HARD to do~ and I think you did great!!!!!! :D ;D

marc n tomtom


I always heard half of the barrel with, but if I go a little more do you think it will be OK.
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Offline PPatch

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Re: rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2015, 03:07:57 AM »
Half a barrel, yes. A bit more won't hurt, let your eye tell you when you're "there." Now is the time to either move that front pin rearward or leave it as is. You should remove more wood around the lock, look in the library here for examples. Harmonize that curve at the top, make it flow, take some off the front and rear and squeeze a bit more off the bottom. The forearm does look a bit thick but that is determined by where your ramrod is, your web thickness, so if it has to be a bit thick then live with it. You can thin everything forward of the lock area still, be mindful of your shaping as you get thinner.

Don't be in a hurry, do put the rifle away for a bit and then return and give it your best eye and judgement. Doing that helps spot areas needing more attention.

dave
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Offline Rich

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Re: rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2015, 03:17:09 AM »
I've been told by them that know, that while some tn rifles had rounded forestocks, most were v shaped. Also, flat under the lock panels.

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2015, 04:17:50 AM »
I've been told by them that know, that while some tn rifles had rounded forestocks, most were v shaped. Also, flat under the lock panels.

Be careful with that U and V forearm thing.   Most guns have forearms somewhere between a U and a V.    Going from a wide barrel to a narrow ramrod is going to give you some sort of a V.    It is all a matter of how direct your path is from the barrel to the ramrod.     The rifles of SW. VA and E. TN in the early 19th century tended to be more V than U, but I only ever handled ONE rifle that had a a real V shaped forearm and it was distinctly uncomfortable to handle.    The lower forearm should be egg shaped with the broader, more rounded end, on the bottom.    Thus, U shaped.  The upper forearm is going to be more V shaped.   I start out shaping the upper forearm V shaped and then round it off as I finish it.  

You need to use an original rifle of your chosen style as your guide to such things.   As a general rule,  I make earlier rifles (1775-1785) more rounded than later (1800 +).

The stock should always be comfortable to handle and shoulder.  To a very great extent,  the parts (most specifically, the barrel, lock, butt piece, and trigger guard) and the owners dimensions (pull and drop)  will dictate the shape of the stock such as how flat or not, the panels under the lock may be.   The same goes for the angles of the panels at the top of the lock panels.

The lock mortice should be narrow, as in 1/8" or less.  The flat portions of the lock panel in the front and back of the lock should be about the same length.    You don't want a lot of flat surfaces on the lock panel.    The the profile of the side plate panel should roughly match the lock panel but only really needs to be the same length, ending at the same points when viewed from the top and bottom of the stock.   That said,  you don't want a lot of flat surfaces to surround the side plate.    Slim it down a bit more than the lock plate if you need to.   I don't like to have a thicker mortice under the sideplate than under the lock.



« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 04:31:46 AM by Mark Elliott »

Offline Maalsral

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Re: rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2015, 04:25:07 AM »
Look at originals or rifles built by others especially specific parts such as the lock panel or the amount of barrel showing. Go slow. It is amazing what you see or think about on your build when you are away from it for a day or two.
Mark Thomas

kaintuck

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Re: rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2015, 04:41:06 AM »
And for gods sakes man......get a workshop cat!!!

And if you can't afford a cat, a least a dog...... ::) ;D

Marc n  Tom tom

sweed

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Re: rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2015, 04:57:16 AM »
Just a thought to keep in th back of yer head......once you remove that wood, you cant put it back! So as has been said go slow....get away from it.... then if you really know it needs to go, take off some more.

Old sayin... Its easy, just cut away everything that dont look like a rifle stock!  :D  ::)

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2015, 05:22:11 AM »
Top edge of your fore-stock should come to a knife edge against the side of the barrel and should only be about 1/16 -3/32 wide on each side as you look down on the fore-stock. Very lean and skinny. You can take a lot more off of the lock and side panels. the lock should only be inlet to the bevel on the plate. the side panel can even be slightly thinner than the lock panel.... Next time if you are building a Southern gun I suggest that you use and English style lock and it will look more like what you see in the pictures. German locks were not used very often on Mtn guns. Take wood off til it scares you and then take a little more........
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Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2015, 05:58:56 AM »
Take wood off til it scares you and then take a little more........

That is pretty much the same rule I use for how fast I can drive my car.  ;D

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2015, 06:46:00 AM »
Talk about side flat showing, this gun has almost the bottom corner hanging out. It's not a SoMo or Tenn rifle, tho, so take this with a grain of sand.
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Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2015, 10:40:08 AM »
Talk about side flat showing, this gun has almost the bottom corner hanging out. It's not a SoMo or Tenn rifle, tho, so take this with a grain of sand.


I don't think I would go that far.  It is just a generally good architecture thing.  Not a southern rifle thing.  In fact a lot of southern rifles have terribly wide lock panels and lots of people copy them not knowing any better.  The best southern builders didn't and don't build like that.  That is one way I can tell a professionally trained gunsmith from a guy that just picked up the trade.

kaintuck

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Re: rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2015, 02:30:36 PM »
Yeah...what they said........think "broomstick with a barrel" :o


"Tomato stake with a barrel"


Marc n tomtom
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 03:34:52 PM by Ky-Flinter »

Offline Tom Currie

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Re: rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2015, 02:36:46 PM »
I'd suggest that the upper and lower forestock have more wood than needed. The overhead shot shows its not everly wide but top to bottom looks tall. How thick is the web in there ? The gum also looks wide at the lock area also. An overall suggestioi would be to remove 10 to 20% of the wood volume on your next build.

Sort of what Mark Ellliot had in quotes.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2015, 02:50:22 PM »
Quote
if you are building a Southern gun I suggest that you use and English style lock and it will look more like what you see in the pictures. German locks were not used very often on Mtn guns.
I agree with Tim but you could go a long way in rectifying the problem by rounding the facets of the pan on that Siler. I have seen some Siler's modified to make nice looking English style locks.
Dennis
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Offline JDK

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Re: rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2015, 04:25:57 PM »
In my opinion the whole "U" and "V" thing can be confusing to the novice builder who doesn't have original or good contemporary work to copy.  Both have straight sides.  The "U" is more akin to a T/C Hawken, with the shelf at the top where it meets the barrel :P, than any original work.  Neither of those shapes continue above the termination of their tops to meet the barrel.

The way I was taught to visualize the cross section of the upper forend was to think in terms of an "acorn" or an "egg" instead of the "U" and an "apple" or "heart" instead of the "V".  Neither have straight lines and the shape continues up to where it meets the barrel.  In my limited experience, even those forends that fall into the "V" category and appear to have flats are not truly flat, but have a slight radius to them.

Draw an octagon the dimensions of your barrel and superimpose either of these shapes over it, sized so that there is the desired amount of wood at the sides of the barrel (think very thin), and taking your barrel/ramrod relationship (or web) into account, and you have your template.

As far as the lower forend, I'll wager that the "acorn" or "egg" shape will work for probably 90% of guns out there.  Either way, just ensure there is a radius/curve to the sides.....no flats!!!

Enjoy, J.D.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 04:34:26 PM by JDK »
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Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2015, 04:59:37 PM »
Bowkill,

All good info above, but I wouldn't remove any more wood from the nose and tail of the lock panel.  As mentioned above, narrow the other edges of the lock panel down to 1/8" or so, basically paralleling the edges of the lock plate, then blend into the lines of the existing nose and tail.  On some guns the lock panel parallels the lower edge of the lock, on others this line is straight or almost straight.   "Stretching" the lock panel nose and tail helps to make the gun look longer and slimmer.  And making the molding narrower will help the transition from stock to barrel on either side of the barrel tang.

Also, it looks like you need to take the surface of the lock panel down, so that the surface of the lock panel meets the lock plate where the bevel on the lock plate ends.

-Ron
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Offline bowkill

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Re: rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2015, 01:31:35 AM »
Think your right ky-flinter. Long slinder lock panels, and they are way too thick. I have a copy of tracks tn rifle plans and my forend is already smaller than their plans, but I am going for super tiny. So 3\4 barrel showing and 3\4 ramrod showing. Go small or go home...yee- ha.     May be able to see through it..lol
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 03:20:48 AM by bowkill »
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Offline Pete G.

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Re: rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2015, 05:09:23 PM »
To get a good SMR keep thinking thin. Even when you think you are through shaping there is still more to be removed.

Offline bowkill

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Re: rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2015, 07:01:56 PM »
the wed is just too thick on this rifle....guess that is what you get with a precarve..
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Offline bowkill

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Re: rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2015, 07:06:32 PM »
Here is my walnut stock i started for this gun but when i got it this close to completion i seen the ramrod hole was a little off and looked bad. allot of work but learned from my mistakes for the next one.

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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2015, 11:17:22 PM »
What's wrong with the RR hole?
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Offline bowkill

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Re: rifle stock shape tn rifle?
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2015, 03:36:38 AM »
i will take picture..
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