Author Topic: High and Low Loads?  (Read 13816 times)

benjaminh123

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High and Low Loads?
« on: July 03, 2015, 07:40:52 PM »
On this page (http://www.americanlongrifles.com/american-longrifles-safety.htm) it states:
"If you think you need to shoot 100 grains or more for hunting deer,  remember that the original longhunters frequently shot loads in the range of 35-40 grains and they hunted for a living.    There is generally a high and a low load that will give you the same group."

Where was the 35-40 grains info taken from?
Does anyone here still use low loads?

Offline WadePatton

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Re: High and Low Loads?
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2015, 07:59:04 PM »
What is the purpose of _your_ loads?  That is the first question.  Hunting and target shooting are two different endeavors.  

Every gun produces best accuracy with a load developed for that particular gun.  Change any component and the load will need to be adjusted.  In doing such you might find a "low-power" load that punches paper just as well as a "full power" load.  This is FINE for punching paper or plinking  where ranges are more predictable and misses result in no injury other than to the shooter's pride.

For hunting it is obscene to use anything less than your most accurate and powerful load to effectively cover the variables known to hunting conditions, such as weather and range and sidehills, etc.  As a hunter one owes the game the most accurate and effective loading he can possibly muster.

A "low" but accurate load will have a much rounder trajectory than a "high" load making range estimation much more important for proper shot placement on game.  Punch paper with whatever you like.  Please take some "thump" to the woods for the critters.

Some guys use the most accurate/heavy load for everything, since one doesn't always know what situation will present itself to the shooter/hunter next.  

If you're trying to save powder, going down a caliber or two may be a better option.  

The round ball is highly effective (more so than "modern ballistics" are designed to calculate) on game and one needn't go overboard with caliber, but to satisfy his game department regs.  Accuracy is where you find it, but don't shortchange your quarry and self by hunting with squibs.

« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 08:03:06 PM by WadePatton »
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benjaminh123

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Re: High and Low Loads?
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2015, 08:09:02 PM »
Thanks Wade,
I'm mainly thinking about target shooting; I realize that to ethically hunt, you need to have a powerful load.

Benjamin

Offline Standing Bear

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Re: High and Low Loads?
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2015, 09:24:17 PM »
On one gun I have found 50 grains FFg to be very accurate.  When I go to 100 yds 75 gr FFg brings the impact to the sights and is also very accurate.  Now I just have to remember to use the right measure for the shot.
TC
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: High and Low Loads?
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2015, 09:25:54 PM »
Good deal.  The more experience you gather, the more specific your questions can be.  Focused inquiries tend to get the best answers here.

Have fun, powder first.  ;)
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jamesthomas

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Re: High and Low Loads?
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2015, 01:12:57 AM »
On this page (http://www.americanlongrifles.com/american-longrifles-safety.htm) it states:
"If you think you need to shoot 100 grains or more for hunting deer,  remember that the original longhunters frequently shot loads in the range of 35-40 grains and they hunted for a living.    There is generally a high and a low load that will give you the same group."

Where was the 35-40 grains info taken from?
Does anyone here still use low loads?

 You also have to remember that "back in the day" a lot of folks only shot a .40 or a .36 cal. rifle the .50 cals. didn't show up until folks started moving out west were the game animals, Bison and Elk needed a heavier round. So 35 to 40 grains is not a bad charge for the lighter calibers. Btw, Didn't Dan'l Boone kill his bears with a .36 cal. Longrifle?

Offline Daryl

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Re: High and Low Loads?
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2015, 03:47:55 AM »
Seems long ago, most rifle twists were in the 48" range. The European guns were ever faster twisted until in England, they found dangerous beats could not be killed with light loads that shot best in the faster twists. Such quick twists are usually found to shoot well with lighter chargers than slower twists demand.

Rifling twists were slowed due to the demand for more power on big game - read :"The Sporting Rifle and it's Projectiles" by Lt. James Forsyth concerning these 36" to 48" twists and how they fared on large and on dangerous animals.  He pushed for 1/4 turn in the length of the barrels which allowed much heavier loads delivering higher speeds which game better killing power as well as better long range accuracy.

Talk about deer - the Red Deer(stags) of Scotland - barely, if larger than a BIG Muley or Whitetail, (most pictures of them with the hunter show large NA deer size) dogs were used to bring wounded game to 'bag'. Forsyth wrote this was good as the fast twist, 40 to 60gr. charges were better at  wounding game than killing it outright, whereas with slower twists and heavier charges, the round balls killed outright.

Today, ML barrels have slower twists. We know they shoot best at longer ranges- starting at 50yards and on out, if heavier charges are used. We also know there is enough of a difference in trajectory to make the heavier charges worthwhile, especially in the West where longer ranges are common and stalking closer cannot be done much of the time.

I test my rifles and work up the most accurate load for them - with water based lubes for target and with oil or grease based lubes for hunting. What I have found, bar none, is that with oil - there is one load that shoots the best & it is considered by many here to be too much powder - oh well, it is the most accurate and THAT is what I use.  In my rifles, oil lubed patches require at least 10gr. MORE powder than water base lubed patches.  If I am target shooting with an oil or grease patch, I MUST use the heavier charge, which means more points in score - it also means while hunting, the best accuracy, the flattest trajectory and the most killing power. To use less than the BEST load, is imoral and a tragedy perpetrated upon the game sought, imho.

Accuracy at 25yards, in the true meaning of accuracy means very little & can be achieved with squib loads that would barely kill a ground hog. Accuracy at 50yards starts to have a lot of meaning and accuracy at longer ranges where the game is shot, or scores are made are even more important. A rifle can shoot a tiny one hole 5-shot group, barely the side of 3 balls touching in a cloverleaf with a tiny charge of powder - that will shoot wildly at 50 yards and beyond.  If you only shoot paper at 25 yards - and don't hunt, you can get buy with tiny charges.

Lewis and Clark found out quickly, the small bores and small loads of The East (late 1700's and early 1800's), did not far well against the elk and bears of the plains. Even the .54 calibre rifles they had, model 1803's it is said(and argued against), did not kill well. Those shot a 220gr. ball with 80gr. of powder in the issue load.

Benjanin- can you tell us where you found this tidbit of information?

"you think you need to shoot 100 grains or more for hunting deer,  remember that the original longhunters frequently shot loads in the range of 35-40 grains and they hunted for a living"

Were these the men who actually shot deer, elk and buffalo to feed the forts? If so, I thought they were normally army and shot regulation charges: round ball, or buck and ball ctgs. both of which were for their .69 calibre muskets and charged with 165gr. of powder up until 1820 or so,and then 135gr. afterwards. The common .54 rifle charges were with patched balls and in the realm of 80gr.of rifle powder.  I've never seen in print where these "market hunters" used less than the issue loads.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2015, 05:45:58 PM by Daryl »
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Offline hanshi

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Re: High and Low Loads?
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2015, 03:50:15 AM »
The states I've lived in had a minimum powder charge requirement of 50 grains.  This is not a bad load for woods hunting where the distances are fairly short; but I use 60 grains in my .45s as this load is accurate.  The .50, on the other hand gets a bump up from that.
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Offline Standing Bear

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Re: High and Low Loads?
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2015, 04:15:36 AM »
I also think the longhunters were expert trackers or had one with them.  They would rather track a deer or other game several hundred yards than loose the lead with a pass through shot.  Carrying less lead and recovering ball would have meant more food, tobacco, powder etc they could carry.

Just my logic.
TC
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Offline Daryl

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Re: High and Low Loads?
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2015, 04:50:40 AM »
When the Brits used tiny squib loads, they had dogs to track the wounded game that was the final product. 
Of course, if the ball hit a moose's ribs, it would probably bounce back out the entrance hole. ;)
Daryl

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benjaminh123

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Re: High and Low Loads?
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2015, 06:49:14 AM »
Daryl, the link to the info is posted in the first post; I was just confused about that info and wondered where it was picked up. I had never heard of such light loads.

Offline Daryl

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Re: High and Low Loads?
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2015, 12:08:12 AM »
Daryl, the link to the info is posted in the first post; I was just confused about that info and wondered where it was picked up. I had never heard of such light loads.

Oh- tks Benjammin123 - don't know who wrote that, but there is a lot of simple over-caution displayed in print, now and before.

Lyman used up to 180gr. 2F in their .58 testing - somewhat higher than the 2X .58 rule & over in virtually every calibre tested, especially in the larger sizes - seems they had better pressure testing equipment than whomever wrote the do's and don'ts article in that link. Even TC suggested loads of 110gr. of 3F in their .50's.

Come to think of it, perhaps that writing was about original guns, ie: antiques?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 03:52:19 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline bigsmoke

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Re: High and Low Loads?
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2015, 01:58:12 AM »
Daryl,
I bet that info from T/C was printed before the bean counters and the lawyers took charge of the company.
Then when S&W came on board..., well, never mind.
John

Offline Daryl

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Re: High and Low Loads?
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2015, 06:27:52 AM »
I think those loads were with the 370gr. slugs, as well. I seem to recall they suggested 120 in the .54's, course, those aren't much over double bore size and they are not really traditional rifles.  Not known what is meant by that statement - traditional?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 08:04:11 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Ron T.

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Re: High and Low Loads?
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2015, 03:31:17 PM »
I have two older CVA Hawken rifles, both in .50 caliber with double-set triggers.

My "target" rifle has a 28" barrel and shoots "clover-leafs ("IF" I do my job) using 47 grains of FFFg Swiss Black Powder with a .490" Hornady swagged rifle ball wrapped in .016" cotton denim lubed with a mixture of bee's wax and liquid Crisco Cooking Oil.

My "deer hunting" rifle has a 24" barrel and is very accurate with 47 grains of Swiss and just as accurate using a "hunting load" of 70 grains of Swiss Black Powder with the same ball and lubed patch as the above.

This load (70 grains) will shoot THROUGH a deer unless heavy bone is hit and no deer has ever run very far before dropping. 

That said, I must also admit I "limit" my hunting range to 80 yards or less... preferably LESS... and always try to use some kind of "rest" when shooting paper or wild game to increase the probability of hitting exactly on the point-of-aim which is usually just behind the shoulder about mid-way up the game's rib-cage... i.e., in a deer's "kill-zone".

I do so because I'm an "old @$#%" and my eyes aren't as good as they once were... especially when  using the iron sights on my muzzle-loading rifles.  (All  my center-fire rifles have 'scopes on 'em)

I'm current switching over to Goex FFFg Black Powder due to the high cost of Swiss... and, so far, I have seen very little (if any) difference in accuracy using the same amount of Goex vs. Swiss Black Powder. 

However, I have not chronographed either the Swiss or Goex loads at this point... but I plan to get around to doing that sometime with the assumption being the Swiss loads will have a somewhat higher muzzle velocity than the Goex... but, maybe that won't be the case.  We'll see.


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ddoyle

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Re: High and Low Loads?
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2015, 08:43:39 PM »
Quote
They would rather track a deer or other game several hundred yards than loose the lead with a pass through shot.  Carrying less lead and recovering ball would have meant more food, tobacco, powder etc they could carry.

I doubt anyone ever purposefully loaded with the idea that they would temporarily deposit the lead and then spend the rest of the day/night/day "tracking" so as to come up on a half bloated carcass in some less then ideal gulch. Not saying that lead recovery is not important but setting yourself up to face risks, loose time, loose further harvest opportunities etc etc is not the wise choice.


Offline Topknot

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Re: High and Low Loads?
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2015, 02:34:53 AM »
The article probably came from Mike Nesbitt. He had a full length article about half-loads a few years back. Half loads for target work and squirrels and rabbits and full loads for bigger game.

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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: High and Low Loads?
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2015, 04:21:48 AM »
I use full loads while hunting, since I feel that even a 1/2 load in a ,54 or .62 is going to mess up a rabbit unless you head shoot him.  If I get a shot at a small game edible while big game hunting, I head shoot them. If I'm not hunting big game, then I have my squirrel rifle with me.  My friend shot a deer with a .54 rifle I built for him.  He loaded  a .530 ball over 50 gr of FFg instead of the 80 to 100 I recommended.  He found the deer …finally, ..the next day.  Coyotes had eaten a lot of it. 

ottawa

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Re: High and Low Loads?
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2015, 03:58:24 PM »
Back many a moon a go I picked up a .58 zuave and a .50 TC hawken at a pawn shop in Cali for a $ 100 for both went to the rang and sited the .58 in had a good ML shooter next to me showed me how to work up a load cutting  the X at 50 yards only needed 50gr of 2ff but he showed me that to hunt with it needed a bump up 110gr did the trick . never did get to shoot the .50 flint TC the guy who helped me gave me $200 for it as soon as he saw it it didn't even have a scratch on the frizen  so that was a  good range day

Offline heelerau

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Re: High and Low Loads?
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2015, 02:08:31 AM »
 I use 90 grs of FFg in my .50 Missouri rifle, good for Kangas and foxes., I once shot 5 kangas at about 125yds as the wind was right. Never did that again as it was a lot of meat to pack out !! I head or chest shoot rabbits with it so not to ruin to much meat. Generally I use a .36 or a .40 on rabbits, . the .40 on kangas  I use about 35 grs of FFFg in these rifles and they do a good job. The block who built the .40 said double the charge if you go out after deer. Deer are very rare and hard to get in my area.  For wild pig I use 75grs of FFg in my Enfields and that works fine.

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Gordon
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Re: High and Low Loads?
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2015, 04:52:42 PM »
several antique powder chargers have been found that appear to be "half loads"; remember that in the east at least hunters often used dogs and cornered or treed game, shooting them at close range--even placing the muzzle on the animal at times.  There are references to light loads in period writings and the expression "loaded for bear" might mean purposely loading heavy when it was called for. According to several accounts Indians often loaded light and frontiersman claimed they could tell when an Indian had fired somewhere in the woods by its report--even some accounts of Indian loads bouncing off such things as a blanket roll during a firefight.  Conservation of powder was a real issue on the early frontier. We today seem fixated on magnum loads, possibly influenced by modern arms, and on not cleaning between shots/tight loads/ball starters, etc., whereas the oldtime hunter was not by all accounts.

zimmerstutzen

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Re: High and Low Loads?
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2015, 01:49:08 AM »
Hunting in 1730 Pa was vastly different than hunting in 1800 and vastly different than today.  The great eastern conifer forest is gone replaced by hardwoods and vast open fields.  Completely different hunting ranges and tactics
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 01:49:52 AM by zimmerstutzen »

Offline Daryl

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Re: High and Low Loads?
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2015, 06:13:21 AM »
Head out west and one needs a point blank range of 120 to 135yards. Decent loads that do not develop excessive pressures are important - these are the loads we use in our rifles of .54 to .69 calibre to achieve the desired trajectory- for big game. Our big game can run 700 to 1,200pounds.
A .50 is marginal for most moose hunters.
Daryl

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