Author Topic: collectors of NC/ TN iron mounted guns  (Read 16095 times)

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

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Re: collectors of NC/ TN iron mounted guns
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2015, 01:16:35 AM »
why on earth would the seller not want us to see the lock? Price appears about right for a no-name wall-hanger, but his BIN ??Mo thanks.

Offline debnal

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Re: collectors of NC/ TN iron mounted guns
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2015, 04:25:55 PM »
Looks like it was bought for the "buy it now" price.
Al

Offline debnal

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Re: collectors of NC/ TN iron mounted guns
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2015, 05:02:51 PM »
I find it interesting that the same gun will often sell on Ebay for considerably more than it would on gunbroker, or at a show. But, the trick is getting it on Ebay without them pulling the auction. I have successfully sold guns on Ebay but I have also had several auctions pulled.
Al

Offline Buck

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Re: collectors of NC/ TN iron mounted guns
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2015, 07:09:30 PM »
According to Jerry Nobel (Author of 4 books on Southern Rifles) that is the only southern rifle he has seen with a barrel that is octagonal to round and rifled. I heard an advanced collector from the KRA purchased it. A no name wall hanger? It appears it is slightly more significant than a "no name wall hanger". I am sure the buyer will post the information everyone wants to know soon.
Buck

Offline JTR

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Re: collectors of NC/ TN iron mounted guns
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2015, 07:29:03 PM »
I have to admit that when I saw the oct/round barrel I assumed it was a replacement. And I guess I missed the part about it being rifled, other than the guy called the gun a rifle, which on ebay generally doesn't mean much.
As for not showing the lock, the description says 'Non Functional' so it probably doesn't have an actual operating lock. Maybe just a piece of metal with that hammer bolted to it?
It'll be interesting to see and get a better look at it if it gets posted here with better pics!
John
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 07:42:29 PM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: collectors of NC/ TN iron mounted guns
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2015, 10:00:28 PM »
Looked to me the seller was stating it was non functioning because it was missing the ramrod which would give it an eBay pass to a moderator who knew very little about BP guns.

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: collectors of NC/ TN iron mounted guns
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2015, 07:27:34 AM »
Looked to me the seller was stating it was non functioning because it was missing the ramrod which would give it an eBay pass to a moderator who knew very little about BP guns.

I buy and sell a lot on eBay (not guns), and I have to think that the sale of muzzle loaders on eBay is a wink and nod kind of thing.   "If you pretend it isn't really a gun, so will we."  ;)   They aren't stupid.   

Offline WElliott

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Re: collectors of NC/ TN iron mounted guns
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2015, 06:11:54 AM »
Octagon to round barrels were sometimes reused by Southern mountain builders. I have an iron-mounted Tennessee mountain poboy riflle with a large grease hole built around an early octagon to round barrel. Nothing was wasted in the backcountry.
Wayne Elliott

Offline Tanselman

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Re: collectors of NC/ TN iron mounted guns
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2015, 06:10:16 AM »
For those of you who had an interest in this thread on a "southern" rifle two weeks ago, I'll fill in the rest of the story. The rifle is a rare example of the work of Washington Hatfield of Green County, Indiana. Among Indiana collectors, Hatfield's work is eagerly sought after since he is well-known in Indiana; his work is distinctive, but Hatfield guns rarely show up. I've watched for them for about 35 years, and this is the first one that I've been able to acquire.

Hatfield's work is easily identified by the striking cast pewter nose cap in chevron style with triangular points at the rear. His iron guards are also very distinctive, as are his "plumber fittings" style ramrod pipes made out of copper. Most of his rifles were walnut stocked, but several fine, curly maple stocked rifles with silver inlay work are also known. Hatfield was trained in northern Tennessee, and his rifles exhibit Tennessee influences.

Of particular interest on this rifle is its barrel, which is octagon-to-round; I have never seen such a barrel on a Hatfield rifle before. The barrel is rifled and has its original punch marks around the muzzle. The round section of the barrel was actually hand-filed round, not turned on a lathe. Why an octagon-to-round barrel??? I'd guess that a customer had seen a "modern" rifle in the 1850s with a shorter round barrel and wanted one, so Hatfield obliged him. The barrel is only 37.6 inches long with a .38 caliber bore, but it is the full original length as determined by the cast chevron nose cap that is intact...if the barrel had been shortened, the nose cap would undoubtedly be gone. The cast nose cap fits snuggly around the round section of the barrel, verifying the front portion of the barrel was round when the gun was made and the nose cap cast into place.

This rifle has a couple areas of minor damage to the stock wood that I will get cleaned up, but overall it is an interesting example of Washington Hatfield's southern Indiana work, and the only known example with an octagon-to-round barrel. I'll see if I can get Nord to post a couple of photos of the gun to this response so you can see the major details of a Washington Hatfield rifle...just don't memorize them too well, since I want the next posted rifle to also slip through so I can pick it up reasonably.  Shelby Gallien



« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 06:00:35 PM by Tanselman »

Offline sqrldog

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Re: collectors of NC/ TN iron mounted guns
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2015, 07:26:00 AM »
Thanks for the update. Way to go Shelby. Tim

Offline WElliott

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Re: collectors of NC/ TN iron mounted guns
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2015, 05:45:17 AM »
Good for you, Shelby. You should have it!
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 05:56:38 AM by WElliott »
Wayne Elliott

Offline JTR

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Re: collectors of NC/ TN iron mounted guns
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2015, 06:15:31 PM »
Good eye, Shelby!

John
John Robbins

Offline PPatch

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Re: collectors of NC/ TN iron mounted guns
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2015, 02:38:09 AM »
Very interesting and thank you for the update.

dave
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Offline gunmaker

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Re: collectors of NC/ TN iron mounted guns
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2015, 02:51:22 AM »
Any chance Mr. Hatfield produced any flint gun's ?.................Tom































Tony Clark

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Re: collectors of NC/ TN iron mounted guns
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2015, 03:56:19 AM »

I don't think that one "slipped through" it was an $1100 firearm. The octagon to round barrel was most likely re-purposed no backwoods country maker would go through the trouble of doing that for no purpose whatsoever other then aesthetics it goes against reasoning. Nice gun but not a steal that is for sure.

Offline Tanselman

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Re: collectors of NC/ TN iron mounted guns
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2015, 05:14:29 AM »
We never really know why a specific rifle that varies from the norm is built that way...but my guess is that there was a reason behind it that is lost to later generations. In the case of this Hatfield rifle, the fact that the barrel is not only octagon-to-round, but also shorter than normal for Hatfield's work (and for most octagon-to-round reused barrels) implies that there was probably some thought behind it...such as reducing barrel weight for carrying the gun on horseback. Close inspection of the barrel shows the joint where the two sections meet is not shaped like a normal octagon/round barrel, but rather the round section buts up flush with the octagon section. I haven't seen that before in an eastern octagon/round barrel, so it makes me think Hatfield did the filing on the round section to achieve some result the owner wanted in his rifle. We will never know what the actual story is behind the barrel...but the way it is filed at the joint creates the possibility that Hatfield did the work...perhaps using a re-cycled barrel, but we'll never know. It simply adds another dimension to the known work of Hatfield, whether done as salvage, or if done with some thought in mind.

There are always at least two markets for these early rifles, the first being the general market, and the second being the local market. I'd guess most non-Indiana collectors don't know who Washington Hatfield was...and those that do probably don't have much interest in his work. But for Hoosiers who enjoy and look for Indiana-made rifles, to find a Washington Hatfield gun is a big deal...and an expensive one. I've never seen a Washington Hatfield rifle with a good nose cap and his trademark iron mounts sell down in the 1K range in the last 15 years. Of course, I've seen a number of "wanna be" rifles sell in that range, where it kind of looked like a Hatfield and the buyer was willing to take a chance on it. If out of state, probably not a great deal...but if from Indiana, a very good buy that's easily resold to other knowledgeable Indiana collectors at a good mark-up. They are not beautiful guns, but interesting guns since a lot is known about Washington Hatfield and his brother Emanuel Hatfield, but very few Hatfield guns ever surface.

Regarding the question about whether a flintlock Hatfield has been seen...the short answer is "no." But, there is one fine, and probably very early, Washington Hatfield rifle with curly maple stock, brass mountings including a capbox, and a number of silver inlays, that has a flint plate used as a percussion lock. The gun has a single lock bolt and was undoubtedly made in the early percussion era...but it could possibly have been made as a late flint rifle with single bolt and double throat cock on a late style flint lock. Another of those questions we'll probably never know for sure...but I always get the feeling, when I see one of the finest guns by a late flint/earily percussion maker, that he probably didn't try to save a buck by re-using an old flint plate, when the gun was one of the most expensive and finest that he ever made. Just my opinion, not gospel on that one.  Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 08:44:20 AM by Tanselman »

Offline Sequatchie Rifle

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Re: collectors of NC/ TN iron mounted guns
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2015, 12:03:34 PM »
Shelby,

I think you have a real treasure there.  If you get "buyer's remorse" let me know and I'm sure we can work something out.

VR,

Bill
"We fight not for glory, nor riches nor honors, but for freedom alone, which no good man gives up except with his life.” Declaration of Arbroath, 1320

Offline Tanselman

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Re: collectors of NC/ TN iron mounted guns
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2015, 09:15:16 AM »
No buyer's remorse yet, but I appreciate your offer. The Hatfield rifle was put in the hands of a good restorer last week to correct the damaged stock areas. I get almost as much enjoyment out of properly restoring a special rifle as I do acquiring it, since it ensures the rifle will go forward in history in proper form, and not risk being improperly restored in the future by some well-intentioned but less knowledgeable collector. We (the restorer and myself) discussed the rifle for over a half hour to make sure it is correctly restored in the areas where stock damage has occurred. If I can remember, I'll post a couple of additional pictures when I get it back in November. This rifle will remain in my personal collection...and I collect primarily state-of-Kentucky guns rather than Indiana guns...since I did most of the original research on Washington Hatfield (published in "Muzzle Blasts" in a two-part series in late 2006) and I've always had an interest in his rather distinctive, unique work. Plus I have the added enjoyment of being able to tantalize/antagonize all of my Indiana collector buddies who don't have a Hatfield rifle but would love to own one. Ah, the side benefits of collecting!  Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 03:19:41 AM by Tanselman »

Offline heelerau

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Re: collectors of NC/ TN iron mounted guns
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2015, 01:03:18 AM »
 Mate, a lovely rifle, the nose cap is amazing. I wonder if rounding off the section of barrel has shifted the point of balance back, much like the double taper? Is the bore in good condition?


Cheers

Gordon
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Offline Tanselman

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Re: collectors of NC/ TN iron mounted guns
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2015, 10:07:50 AM »
The bore is dirty but in good shape, and rifling is still decent...probably shootable, but I haven't pulled the breech plug to check the threads and breech for corrosion.  As to point of balance, it has been shifted back substantially from a typical Hatfield rifle with a 42-44 inch barrel. This rifle is much easier to swing to the shoulder and point than a "normal" Hatfield, with both the shorter barrel and weight removed from rounding the forward section. The original owner must have wanted a light, easier to point rifle, and I often think some of that type demand came from wanting to carry/use the gun from horseback. Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 10:08:48 AM by Tanselman »

Offline Mike T

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Re: collectors of NC/ TN iron mounted guns
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2015, 05:36:35 AM »
Shelby,
   Many thanks for all of the Hatfield information.  Please post some photos of the restored rifle when completed.  Thanks again,  Mike T
Mike T

Offline Don Steele

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Re: collectors of NC/ TN iron mounted guns
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2015, 01:43:34 PM »
Shelby,
Thank you for the most educational posts regarding your Hatfield rifle.
I'm curious to know if there is any sign that a front sight had ever been mounted on that barrel.
Looking at the close-up pic., while I was admiring the really nice endcap and the punch marks..it dawned on me that I didn't see a front sight..nor could I discern ( from the pics) that there had ever been one. Is it just the angle of the photos...or is there no sight up there ??
Thanks again.
Look at the world with a smilin' eye and laugh at the devil as his train rolls by...(Alison Krauss)

Offline Tanselman

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Re: collectors of NC/ TN iron mounted guns
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2015, 07:54:08 AM »
The Hatfield rifle does have a front sight, but it is slightly smaller than a normal Hatfield front sight, or most rifle front sights for that matter. The sight is a short brass blade. When I get the gun back, and if I remember to repost about it, I'll show a picture of the front sight...which is more like a fowler sight than a full length blade-type rifle sight.  Shelby Gallien