Black Powder Brands

[Molly]

Maybe this is another question new shooters will one day be asking.  I was given my first BP (Goex) by an older man in our gun club.  For some silly reason I thought maybe there were very few makers of "original black powder".  Then I discovered Swiss.  Then I see and ad for Schuetzen, then Olde Eynsford by Goex and somewhere I think another brand being offered.  I really don't care about how many brands there may be but I am interested if there is any consensus as to which label is "the best".  Whaddaya think?

[Tony N]

Molly,

I think you'll find that like cars or trucks, everyone has their personal preference.

I like Goex.

~Tony

[SCLoyalist]

I think the major difference between the various brands is the quality of charcoal they use.  Swiss and Old Eynsford are probably the cleanest burning, based on scuttlebutt and the price tags.   

[jamesthomas]

Maybe this is another question new shooters will one day be asking.  I was given my first BP (Goex) by an older man in our gun club.  For some silly reason I thought maybe there were very few makers of "original black powder".  Then I discovered Swiss.  Then I see and ad for Schuetzen, then Olde Eynsford by Goex and somewhere I think another brand being offered.  I really don't care about how many brands there may be but I am interested if there is any consensus as to which label is "the best".  Whaddaya think?

 Olde Eynsford is Goex's answer to Swiss its very good with little fouling its my go to powder now. Then there is KIK powder which I have used to good success but it would leave a hard fouling ring right at the base of the ball and would take a brass or nylon brush to break it up but I did get good groups from it.

[smylee grouch]

I like swiss but havent used up my supply yet. If I get to that point I will try old whatever before I stock up one one of the two.

[snapper]

I tried swiss when it first came to the USA and have since switched from Goex.  I feel that swiss is more accurate powder.

fleener

[Kevin Houlihan]

 I use Swiss in my BP target rifles because its accurate and when I buy a new case it doesn't take any development to make the new lot work as well as the old lot.  I really like KIK 2F in my muzzleloaders because its accurate, inexpensive and I can load and shoot all day 
Kevin 

[hanshi]

I started off with Dupont, used Elephant (it was quite good), G-O?, Goex and now I've been using Jack's Battle Powder made by Goex.  I use whatever comes down the pike if it's not too expensive. 

[Daryl]

Curtis and Harvey in F, FF and FFF, ICI/Meteor (both made in Scotland - same powder, maybe) F, FF and FFF, G-0 F and FF, GOEX F, FF, FFF and FFFF Swiss 1 1/2F, Dupont ff and FFF - that's about it. currently, I use GOEX in 4 granulations mostly, with Swiss 1 1/2F used only in the Sharps.

[bigsmoke]

Been using DuPont/Goex since I started shooting in the 60's.  I really do not see any reason to change horses at this point.
FWIW, 15-20 years ago, I did some testing of various brands of powder in my big bore rifles to see what they did and GOEX fared quite favorably in my testing.  I think Swiss did give slightly better velocities and less variation but I did not see that it was worth the premium price.
As far as accuracy goes, when it is me pulling the trigger, it really doesn't matter anymore.  If the gun goes off and I hit anywhere close to where I was pointing, it's a good day.
Surprisingly, Pyrodex performed quite well, especially the Select.  What a surprise!!!  I did find it prone to hangfire, however.  Even with musket caps.

[Dphariss]

Maybe this is another question new shooters will one day be asking.  I was given my first BP (Goex) by an older man in our gun club.  For some silly reason I thought maybe there were very few makers of "original black powder".  Then I discovered Swiss.  Then I see and ad for Schuetzen, then Olde Eynsford by Goex and somewhere I think another brand being offered.  I really don't care about how many brands there may be but I am interested if there is any consensus as to which label is "the best".  Whaddaya think?

Swiss then Schuetzen then the rest. This has been repeatedly proven. The various "re-enactor" powders are the worst.
The European makers have better charcoal, for powder making, than can be had in America.
This said Goex will shoot very well but its not as consistent as Swiss nor will it produce the same velocity for a given charge.
Dan

[Dphariss]

PS
I am waiting to see a study on old Eynsford to see if "something new has been added". But this will require some chemical analysis.  Unless they have been importing or making their own charcoal (and this would require someone who knew how with the right wood to burn) its tough for an American made powder to compete with Swiss for velocity and consistency.

Dan

[Molly]

So why does Europe have better wood and better charcoal?

[wattlebuster]

When I first started in the mid 70s the only powder you could buy around here was dupont goex. Shot it for yrs then bought a bunch of elephant for a really cheap price 4 bucks including shipping. Im one of the few who liked elephant but its shot up an gone now. So now its goex agian but would be elephant if I could still get my hands on some. As far as some dirtier than others, well they are all dirty an ya have to give your gun a good bath regardless so shoot an get er done

[heinz]

It is not a matter of having better wood. My understanding is the best wood for powder making charcoal is willow and we have bunches of that.
The charcoaling process itself involves baking the volatiles off of the wood and reducing it to the basic carbon structure. This is a messy fume generating process and Europe encourages the sorts of small production operations that produce this. The US does not. (Resisted adding political rant here)
You will note that it is difficult to buy a bag of pure lump charcoal, most of our briquets are coal dust, carbon dust, some wood chips, all bound together with clay. Some real charcoal is used in more expesive brands with a binder but the target is charcoal grill so little or no quality controls.

[Larry Pletcher]

The Swiss use the best wood, I think black willow, but Dan can correct me.  The big difference , IMHO, is that the Swiss put much more care in producing charcoal.  There is a lot of science involved in this, starting with drying the wood to a consistent percent.  They are very careful in the moisture percentage in the finished charcoal. I'd guess others could learn a bunch from the way good charcoal is made.  Dan, feel free to jump in here.

Regards,
Pletch

[ScottH]

Swiss Black Powder is supposed to be made using charcoal made from Buckthorn Alder. The wood species is reportedly known to have been valued for making gun powder for centuries. I believe that the criteria for the charcoal used in making Swiss is pretty stringent. Swiss has a reputation for consistency. It is expensive but I like it.

[Brian]

I'd love to try some Swiss.  Have heard many good things about it.  Unfortunately, it's very hard to find in Canada - at least in this neck of the woods it's hard to find.  So I mostly shoot Goex.

[Dphariss]

It is not a matter of having better wood. My understanding is the best wood for powder making charcoal is willow and we have bunches of that.
The charcoaling process itself involves baking the volatiles off of the wood and reducing it to the basic carbon structure. This is a messy fume generating process and Europe encourages the sorts of small production operations that produce this. The US does not. (Resisted adding political rant here)
You will note that it is difficult to buy a bag of pure lump charcoal, most of our briquets are coal dust, carbon dust, some wood chips, all bound together with clay. Some real charcoal is used in more expesive brands with a binder but the target is charcoal grill so little or no quality controls.

First its not necessarily willow and second NOBODY BURNS it for charcoal in the US. One of the best BP of the late 19th C was C&H Diamond Grain. The Charcoal was made from Dogwood cut in Spain at a certain time of year them C&H did the conversion to Charcoal. I believe the bark was stripped first. When the supply was cut off during the 1930s they stopped production.  IIRC Swiss uses Black Alder for their charcoal. But just having the right wood is meaningless unless the charcoal is properly burnt  (in a retort)
to give a specific product, with creosote level being an important factor in the fouling characteristics of the powder. This is really Bill Knight's territory and I am just recapping what information I have gotten from him over the years.
This might help
http://www.laflinandrand.com/page3.htm

Dan

[One Eye]

Dan, this is great information. No wonder Swiss costs more, even allowing for the import costs.
Many thanks to you and Mr. Knight.
One eye

[hudson]

I believe Dphariss is definitely on the right track. Possibly some of what I recall was Mr. Knight's work. I recall reading an article or a collection some years back. The temperature when charring was quite important for creating creosote. In the article it was stated creosote produced a soft damp fouling. It was found when a temperature or charge level reached a certain point the fouling became dry and hard.  I have always found Swiss to have hard fouling but long range is my game I rarely shoot in paper matches. I know most consider Swiss as a damp/soft fouling powder. I think when one looks at charge weights it all makes sense. I have found Swiss to be ever so slightly more accurate than Goex, am sticking with Goex as my ability is definitely not up to the difference.  Have tried many other brands through the years as they come and go as I love to experiment but sticking with Goex.

[Larry Pletcher]

Thanks, Dan.  I think I remember that the Swiss remove the bark of the Black Alder too.  IIRC the bark was a source of impurities.

Regards,
Pletch

[Daryl]

The best powder I ever shot, was from a 5 pound can I acquired back in 1975 from Cliff Hunter in Vancouver, BC.   American Dead Shot was the brand.  I read somewhere, that factory blew up in 1895 or 1898 and was never rebuilt, thus at that time, the powder was possibly, 80 to 100 years old.  

The powder was FF grade and gave me the BEST accuracy in my slug shooting .50 Bauska Barrel, compared to all the other powders we had then, including ICI, C&F and GO. There was no buildup of fouling in the bore and the shooting was quite clean, even though the Lyman bullet I shot had small, "modern" grease grooves. They were shot without wiping.  

Dead Shot was supposed to be only in 2nd place compared to C&H's Diamond #6 as a sporting powder in the late 1800's. Sure worked for me.  
The powder granuals were hard, clean, angular and sharp sometimes on one end. There was absolutely NO dust in it at all.  Holding a palm full then pouring it from your hand back into the barrel, left my hand perfectly clean - absolutely no dust whatsoever. Of course, I shot it all up and threw the can away. It lasted only a few weeks, maybe a month. I shot a lot then.

[Mad Monk]

I believe Dphariss is definitely on the right track. Possibly some of what I recall was Mr. Knight's work. I recall reading an article or a collection some years back. The temperature when charring was quite important for creating creosote. In the article it was stated creosote produced a soft damp fouling. It was found when a temperature or charge level reached a certain point the fouling became dry and hard.  I have always found Swiss to have hard fouling but long range is my game I rarely shoot in paper matches. I know most consider Swiss as a damp/soft fouling powder. I think when one looks at charge weights it all makes sense. I have found Swiss to be ever so slightly more accurate than Goex, am sticking with Goex as my ability is definitely not up to the difference.  Have tried many other brands through the years as they come and go as I love to experiment but sticking with Goex.

The charring temperature is critical if a good wood is used.  The wood begins to char at about 280 C.  The Swiss do not allow the temperature of the wood, during charring, to rise above 350 C.  About 8 to 10% of the wood is lignin which is a phenolic structured chemical that simply converts to other phenolic structured chemicals during the charring process.  Most going to form creosote.  But not the form of creosote used on railroad ties!  The boiling point of wood creosote is below the charring temperature but the char retains it unless the charring temperature rises above 350 C.  At that point the creosote flashes off and goes out the stack vent line on the charring cylinder.

Some info dating back to the early 1900's talks about an important fraction of the char that may be extracted with acetone.  I found that maple wood properly charred will yield about 5 to 6% of this "oil of creosote" by weight of char.  Then when you get up to European Black Alder or Glossy Buckthorn Alder you will see about 10% of the char weight being this "oil of creosote".

The thing about "moist burning", or Mit Nassbrand, is that the oil of creosote will produce water as a product of combustion.  Carbon char does not produce water as a product of combustion.

With a "moist burning" powder you do not have to rely on the level of humidity in the air, at the time you shoot the gun, to get moist fouling in the bore.  The bore residue is the same no matter what the relative humidity is.

This thing about how much oil of creosote a particular type of wood can produce under ideal charring conditions is not all of the topic in powder performance.  The basic structure of the wood must be small and fairly delicate so that you can grind the char down to near micron size in the ball mill and then wheel mill in the powder making process.  The particle size of the char particles in the finished powder is a major factor in burn rates in the gun.  When I looked at one late 1900's Ely black powder I was looking at a very special char that had been reduced to sub micron particle size in the finished powder.

Mad Monk

[jamesthomas]

 Mad Monk I envy you guys that understand all the chemistry of black powder. Chemistry was never my strong suit in high school or college  .