Author Topic: dealers for muskets  (Read 21170 times)

Offline alhedrick

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dealers for muskets
« on: August 31, 2015, 11:03:51 PM »
does anyone know any thing about any of these company's  as far as quality of product and customer service?
as I am looking to buy a 48 long land brown bess

Middlesex village trading co.


discriminating  general


vetran arms

any help would be greatly appreciated . got my first smoothbore a couple months ago and now I want another
and I want a bess

Offline BOB HILL

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Re: dealers for muskets
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2015, 11:47:51 PM »
Go to the search spot above and search those names. I remember some some neg. comments in the past. Some about safety issues. Have had two Bess locks brought to me to look at that were from Disc. Gen. They were both junk. I'm sure others more knowledgeable than me will comment. Good luck.
Bob
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: dealers for muskets
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2015, 12:13:56 AM »
They are dealers that import wall hanger quality firearms from India. If you want a gun to shoot I'd look elsewhere.
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Offline smart dog

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Re: dealers for muskets
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2015, 03:40:26 PM »
Hi Al,
I do not own any products from those dealers but I repaired quite a few muskets and musket locks sold by several of them.  All of the firearms they sell are made in India and the quality is poor compared with some European commercial repros (Pedersoli) and custom made guns.  They are popular with re-enactors, particularly Middlesex Valley, because they sell a wide variety of muskets and other guns at low prices.  MVT seems to stand behind their products to some extent.  At best, the guns are shootable cartoon versions of the originals, at worst, they are wall hangers that kind of look like the originals if you look from a distance.  Stocks often are made of teak with way too much extra wood left on them, inletting ranges from adequate to poor, all the metal is over polished with buffing wheels (every screw hole gets dished out), sometimes locks don't function or spark, and heat treating of lock parts sometimes is not properly done.  Don't expect easy replacement of faulty or broken parts. That said, there are many satisfied shooters and re-enactors out there using these guns.  There has been heated discussion about barrel safety but it is hard to quantify or actually verify that concern.  In short, they are low cost and crudely made vague reproductions of original muskets and the majority seem to be useable shooters. However, do not expect anything that approaches the quality of the originals for which they purport to be copies.

dave    
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 03:43:56 PM by smart dog »
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Offline PPatch

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Re: dealers for muskets
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2015, 08:52:17 PM »
I had a good long look at several of those India made Brown Bess's such as the ones you speak of that were for sale at a place I visited in St. Augustine Florida earlier this year - nope! Poor in every way.

Those are just tacky reproductions sold to decorate a wall with. The fact that they arrive at your doorstep without a touch hole should tell you what they think of their product as far as actually shooting one goes. No way in the world would I load powder and a more or less 75 caliber ball in one and shoot it.

Save your money and purchase something you can feel safe with, or buy one and hang it on the wall (up high) and leave it there.

dp
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 08:53:21 PM by PPatch »
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Offline smart dog

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Re: dealers for muskets
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2015, 09:29:17 PM »
Hi Dave,
I am not a fan of India-made guns either but Middlesex Valley Trading Co and Loyalist Arms seem to do a pretty good job obtaining better quality work from India and in preparing them to be used as shooters.  I think there is a range of quality out there. I am not sure if MVT and Loyalist drill their own vent holes and also work over the guns before resale. I think at least some are shipped from India without vent holes so they do not have to have the barrels proofed in India.  There are hundreds of re-enactors using these guns and firing them.  Regardless, I personally would not waste $600-700 on one but then I can build whatever I want.

dave
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Offline oldtravler61

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Re: dealers for muskets
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2015, 04:36:33 AM »
 Might want to look at a company called military heritage muzzeloader reproductions. Lot of people that do colonial reinactments like them. There rifles are shown in the Smithsonian. So they are reasonably accurate to history. Not my opinion but of others. They also make guns for some of the major movie productions. Such as Masters an Comanders, pirates of the Carabian and others. They also have a good warranty an return policy.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: dealers for muskets
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2015, 03:21:03 PM »
Quote
There rifles are shown in the Smithsonian.
You have got to be kidding.,... ::)
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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: dealers for muskets
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2015, 05:08:56 PM »
Military Heritage = Discriminating General.  Same thing.  If these "guns" are used in movies, they must be authentic, right ?  ::)  Not hardly.  I owned one way back in my beginning reenacting days, [ a Bess ] and it worked sort of OK especially since I didn't know any better. With a lot of rework of the metal and wood, I got it looking and functioning much better. The locks are individually forged , so replacement parts aren't available. Most of the reenactors I knew back then treated their guns as a prop. Blanks only, ..no live fire with ball etc. Cost was the main deciding factor re the guns used . I've moved on from that whole scene .
My question to you would be - what do you expect to do with your musket [ Bess ] ???
If you want to actually use it , i.e. you want a safe properly functioning, dependable firearm, go elsewhere.
A bess was a military firearm. If you just want a large bore gun , a civilian "fowling " gun might be more appropriate.  My own Chambers New England fowling gun { 10 bore } is much more shooter friendly , and easier to shoot accurately than any  Bess I've seen. 

Offline PPatch

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Re: dealers for muskets
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2015, 05:27:02 PM »
Hi Dave,
I am not a fan of India-made guns either but Middlesex Valley Trading Co and Loyalist Arms seem to do a pretty good job obtaining better quality work from India and in preparing them to be used as shooters.  I think there is a range of quality out there. I am not sure if MVT and Loyalist drill their own vent holes and also work over the guns before resale. I think at least some are shipped from India without vent holes so they do not have to have the barrels proofed in India.  There are hundreds of re-enactors using these guns and firing them.  Regardless, I personally would not waste $600-700 on one but then I can build whatever I want.

dave

Thanks Dave. I was going by what I saw and felt at the place in St. Augustine this year. Not my cup'o tea and for sure wall hangers.

dave
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Re: dealers for muskets
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2015, 07:50:26 PM »
India's is a member of the international group of countries that have fully compatible and thoroughly modern firearms proofing regulations.    But that won't apply to those shipped without touch holes.   These are intended solely as display pieces though they may have been manufactured to the same standard (or not).    So until properly proofed .........

If a local company is drilling the touch holes and selling as fully functional I would want to understand their proof testing.   Does it comply to international standards?  Is it so guaranteed and stamped?

Are to value for money?   Well you get what you can afford.    And to give them their due, what western country could produce anything approaching the Indian guns for that same price?    A different culture - there is pride in their work and skill and if you don't work they and their family don't eat.   

 There is no walnut in India so it must be local wood.   The East India Company found there was no local equivalent timber for gun stocks back in the early 19th century.

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: dealers for muskets
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2015, 03:31:22 PM »
I agree but sometimes people can't afford a custom gun. For what ever reason. So people make suggestion on here to help them. Then they can make a decision based on that. There are a few out there . As for a custom gun. Buyer beware also. Because there are some that build them. But the internals are a nightmare. An yes I was burned! So I have experienced that end too.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: dealers for muskets
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2015, 03:36:22 PM »
I agree but sometimes people can't afford a custom gun. For what ever reason. So people make suggestion on here to help them. Then they can make a decision based on that. There are a few out there . As for a custom gun. Buyer beware also. Because there are some that build them. But the internals are a nightmare. An yes I was burned! So I have experienced that end too.

You always get what you pay for. ;)
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Offline hanshi

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Re: dealers for muskets
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2015, 06:33:01 PM »

Quote
You always get what you pay for. ;)


Not always!  Better way to phrase it is "you pay for what you get."  Sometimes you get LESS than what you pay for.  I've been lucky so far.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 08:51:42 PM by Ky-Flinter »
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: dealers for muskets
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2015, 11:53:15 PM »
The primary problem is the incredible cheapness of many ML "shooters" in America. They can buy a Brown Bess of french musket and some other designs made in Italy that is actually intended to be shot, is properly proofed, has a quality barrel and has some resemblance to an original.

 http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/guns-rifles.asp/l_en/partenza_0/idl_2/rifles/rifles.html

But of course this "costs too much"  and most reenactors see the gun as a prop they gotta have so they buy the cheapest thing they can find or get away with. Sooner or later someone will be seriously hurt and then the reenactors are going to see serious interference with their "sport" from either the gov't and/or the owners of the property the events are held on. But they figure that the chances are so remote that they let people shoot blanks and maybe real ammo in guns that are little better than pipe bombs.

Dan
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Offline okawbow

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Re: dealers for muskets
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2015, 12:47:59 AM »
I don't know if it is because people are so cheap.... I just finished looking at an ad from our local Rural King. They have on sale many firearms, including high power rifles, shotguns, and handguns; many good names like Remington, Winchester, etc. all of them are less than the cost of an India made musket.

When a newbie sees the cost of a Pedersoli musket, compared to these modern guns; I can't blame them for feeling they are overpriced.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 12:48:51 AM by okawbow »
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: dealers for muskets
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2015, 02:29:33 PM »

Quote
You always get what you pay for. ;)


Not always!  Better way to phrase it is "you pay for what you get."  Sometimes you get LESS than what you pay for.  I've been lucky so far.
We could debate your luck..... ;)
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: dealers for muskets
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2015, 03:43:08 PM »
Hanchii you hit the nail on the head.

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Re: dealers for muskets
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2015, 06:03:27 PM »
The better of the ones you are talking about run around $700 for a Brown Bess, I have seen a number of Bess's made by Pedersoli go for around $800 on Gunbroker, so why not wait, save your money until you can come up with the extra needed and try bidding on a musket that has a lot more quality to it.  I'm not saying that the India made firearms are junk, I've done a lot of reading on several forums regarding these and there are a many folks out there that own and shoot them and have done so for quite some time without any problems safety wise, but most of them did say they had to work on them to get them to function reliably, and several mentioned that in their opinion they were pretty much a "kit" that needed to be reworked from end to end in order to come up with a decent looking gun.  I spoke with Dr. White of White Muzzeloading about the one he reworked and sold on one of the auction sites and he said that the basic gun wasn't all that bad, just needed a lot of work to make it shoot reliably. 

Offline Dphariss

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Re: dealers for muskets
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2015, 04:27:01 AM »
I don't know if it is because people are so cheap.... I just finished looking at an ad from our local Rural King. They have on sale many firearms, including high power rifles, shotguns, and handguns; many good names like Remington, Winchester, etc. all of them are less than the cost of an India made musket.

When a newbie sees the cost of a Pedersoli musket, compared to these modern guns; I can't blame them for feeling they are overpriced.

You apparently don't understand the difference between guns designed for mass production and assembly by sometimes low skill workers and a flintlock. The latter takes a lot more time if its actually traditional. Not the mention the cost reduction high volume gives...
A friend of mine explained that it was possible to make a custom 700 Remington based rifle in maybe a 3-4 days and sell it for the same money as a Winchester Single Shot (all new parts) that took 2 weeks. ALL 18th - c-19th c designs are FAR more labor intensive than any modern design, especially the bolt actions. If I can get the parts in hand I can built a match grade AR upper in a could of hours. Because its just assembling the parts there is no fitting at all....
Sorry about mentioning the modern stuff but there is no way to explain the REASONS 18th-19c C firearms cost more than "moiderns" without mentioning them.

Dan
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Offline okawbow

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Re: dealers for muskets
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2015, 09:45:13 PM »
I don't know if it is because people are so cheap.... I just finished looking at an ad from our local Rural King. They have on sale many firearms, including high power rifles, shotguns, and handguns; many good names like Remington, Winchester, etc. all of them are less than the cost of an India made musket.

When a newbie sees the cost of a Pedersoli musket, compared to these modern guns; I can't blame them for feeling they are overpriced.

You apparently don't understand the difference between guns designed for mass production and assembly by sometimes low skill workers and a flintlock. The latter takes a lot more time if its actually traditional. Not the mention the cost reduction high volume gives...
A friend of mine explained that it was possible to make a custom 700 Remington based rifle in maybe a 3-4 days and sell it for the same money as a Winchester Single Shot (all new parts) that took 2 weeks. ALL 18th - c-19th c designs are FAR more labor intensive than any modern design, especially the bolt actions. If I can get the parts in hand I can built a match grade AR upper in a could of hours. Because its just assembling the parts there is no fitting at all....
Sorry about mentioning the modern stuff but there is no way to explain the REASONS 18th-19c C firearms cost more than "moiderns" without mentioning them.

Dan
I do understand the difference between production and handmade. I've made many flintlocks entirely by hand. I've also been involed in making custom and production archery bows for 40 years. Maybe you should re-read my post, and you would see that I said when a NEWBIE sees the price of a modern firearm, they may think a reproduction such as a Pedersoli musket is overpriced.
By the way, a Pedersoli  musket IS a production firearm.
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: dealers for muskets
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2015, 01:42:16 AM »
I don't know if it is because people are so cheap.... I just finished looking at an ad from our local Rural King. They have on sale many firearms, including high power rifles, shotguns, and handguns; many good names like Remington, Winchester, etc. all of them are less than the cost of an India made musket.

When a newbie sees the cost of a Pedersoli musket, compared to these modern guns; I can't blame them for feeling they are overpriced.

You apparently don't understand the difference between guns designed for mass production and assembly by sometimes low skill workers and a flintlock. The latter takes a lot more time if its actually traditional. Not the mention the cost reduction high volume gives...
A friend of mine explained that it was possible to make a custom 700 Remington based rifle in maybe a 3-4 days and sell it for the same money as a Winchester Single Shot (all new parts) that took 2 weeks. ALL 18th - c-19th c designs are FAR more labor intensive than any modern design, especially the bolt actions. If I can get the parts in hand I can built a match grade AR upper in a could of hours. Because its just assembling the parts there is no fitting at all....
Sorry about mentioning the modern stuff but there is no way to explain the REASONS 18th-19c C firearms cost more than "moiderns" without mentioning them.

Dan
I do understand the difference between production and handmade. I've made many flintlocks entirely by hand. I've also been involed in making custom and production archery bows for 40 years. Maybe you should re-read my post, and you would see that I said when a NEWBIE sees the price of a modern firearm, they may think a reproduction such as a Pedersoli musket is overpriced.
By the way, a Pedersoli  musket IS a production firearm.
Yeah I might read a little better.
Production?
I used to help make 19th c design firearms. Quite a few. My wife stocked a thousand or more, don't know exactly. The problem was about 30" of inletting that had to be within .001 to look anything like right. Not counting the forend or buttplate.  
Don't have that problem with a modern "lathe gun".

Dan
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Offline JCKelly

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Re: dealers for muskets
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2015, 02:54:48 AM »
Close one eye, what do you see? Do the same with the other. Now count your fingers.

If you like what you saw, and the number of fingers -

Buy the Pedersoli. The Indian gun may end up being much more costly.

Disagreements with styling details on Pedersoli? Restock it. Get more interesting hardware, as in what Reeves Goehring sells.

Get the Pedersoli. They use, or at least say they use, real steel, with low phosphorus and low sulfer.

Offline Monty59

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Re: dealers for muskets
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2015, 10:19:49 AM »
Hello, first want to say to - alhedrick - a long land brown bess has a 46 inch barrel. We here in Germany have the same problem the people liked to spend the money not much they take the india the other take the pedersoli and very few the Rifle Shoppe kit brown bess like me or the one from TOW. For the most the india works when they get a good revision but it is a lot of work to do and then it looks and work a little better. The pedersoli works out of the box but it does not look right. As an example a india cost here in germany about - euro 600,- a pedersoli euro 1200 new, some times you get them used for euro 500-600. The rifle shoppe kit I think $ 1000,- than you made it by your self  or find a gun builder and pay for he assembly my one was a finsh one and I pay with shipping and the high tax here in Germany euro 2500,- but it was worth it.
Also all depends on what you need them. For me it is important that it works and looks historically correct.

Monty

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Re: dealers for muskets
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2015, 04:00:05 PM »
Just for grins and giggles, TOW sells these low priced, low quality firearms from India. And "yes" the vent hole needs to be drilled. :o ;D

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