Author Topic: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection  (Read 41760 times)

Offline SR James

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The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« on: October 06, 2015, 05:37:23 AM »
Like a lot of forum members, I started muzzleloading back in the 70s.  My first was a Numrich Minute Man flintlock.  The barrel is still in service today but I long ago junked the rest of the rifle.  Eventually I decided to try one of those new fangled caplocks and purchased a Green River Rifle Works Leman kit.  I still have that rifle.  What I really wanted was a GRRW Hawken.  But at $100 more than the Leman, it was out of my graduate student reach.
A few years ago I picked up a slightly used Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken at a very good price.  Shortly thereafter, a Sharon Hawken stumbled into my path.  I soon found myself keeping an eye out for other vintage Hawken repros; not actively looking, just taking advantages of opportunities as they came along.  As a result, I wound up with my Accidental Hawken Collection.
From the top they are:
1.  Ozark Mountain Arms, .54
2.  Sharon Rifle Barrel Co., .54
3.  A gun I built from an orphaned set of 1970s parts from Golden Age Arms and other places.  The .62 1 1/8” barrel was originally 38” but I cut it to 34”.  It’s still a beast.
4.  A gun I built from an orphaned Uberti kit in .54.  This is not the Santa Fe Hawken (see below) but very much resembles the current Pedersoli.  I was unaware Uberti ever offered this.
5.  A current production Pedersoli Rocky Mtn. Hawken, .54
6.  A rifle I built from a Don Stith J&S parts set.  .54    I decided if I was going to have all of these others, I might as well have one of the best Hawkens out there.  I still have to rust blue the barrel.
7.  The most recent purchase, a (at long last) GRRW Hawken in .54
8.  A rifle built in the 70s or maybe early 80s, no maker’s name.  The lock is a Russ Hamm in a style I don’t recall him making but it’s clearly stamped on the inside of the plate.  In .45 with a 1 1/8” bbl, it’s another beast but very accurate.  The rifle has seen some heavy use and has a nice patina which appealed to me.  And it was cheap.
9.  A Uberti Western Arms/Allen Arms Santa Fe Hawken in .52.  This one is marked Western Arms.

Since I’ve finally found a GRRW (and since I’m out of wall space) I’m going to quit now.


« Last Edit: January 11, 2024, 09:11:45 PM by rich pierce »

Offline Longknife

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Re: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2015, 04:05:29 PM »
DONE? I'm bett'n you build a bigger gun rack!!!!
Ed Hamberg

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Re: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2015, 04:21:58 PM »
I envy you.  A wonderful collection. 
Does the Uberti/Western Arms one have a serial number?    Wondered how many of these were made.

Peter.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2015, 07:31:41 PM »
What a stellar collection!
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Windriverbob

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Re: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2015, 07:38:36 PM »
Love the collection! You need to belong to the Green River Rifle collectors association. Just so happens I publish the GRRW collectors newsletter(The Green River Gazette)which is full of useful and a little not so useful information. The price is right(free, just need your e-mail address), can't beat that this day of age. If you can send me the serial number and  picture of the touch mark that's on the oblique flat back by the breech, I can tell you which maker built it at GRRW and probably when it was shipped and maybe even to whom. I can even e-mail you all the back issues of the Gazette(I think there is 9 now)which will bring you up to speed with the rest of the members. My e-mail is bob@bucksnorttrading.com
Bob

Offline Joe S.

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Re: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2015, 10:08:27 PM »
very nice collection indeed.Out of wall space?three other walls in that room ;D

Offline bones92

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Re: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2015, 10:53:54 PM »
Very nice line-up. 

Don't you love how this forum is full of enablers?   ;)   


Speaking of which, you can add dowels between the existing sets and rest even more Hawkens pointing the other way (i.e. pointing to the left).    You may want to add another vertical board (or just increase the distance between the existing wall-mounted boards).
If it was easy, everyone would do it.

Offline Martin S.

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Re: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2015, 11:32:37 PM »
Love the collection! You need to belong to the Green River Rifle collectors association. Just so happens I publish the GRRW collectors newsletter(The Green River Gazette)which is full of useful and a little not so useful information. The price is right(free, just need your e-mail address), can't beat that this day of age. If you can send me the serial number and  picture of the touch mark that's on the oblique flat back by the breech, I can tell you which maker built it at GRRW and probably when it was shipped and maybe even to whom. I can even e-mail you all the back issues of the Gazette(I think there is 9 now)which will bring you up to speed with the rest of the members. My e-mail is bob@bucksnorttrading.com
Bob

I just saw a GRRW sell for almost $2500 on Track's website.

Why do these production guns demand such a premium?

To the OP, nice collection, which one do you like the best?

Which one is most authentic?

Offline sz

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Re: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2015, 04:54:02 PM »
WOW------------What a collection!
But why quit?
You still need a full stock, an "interpretive Ashley Hawken" (69 cal) and one make with a pistol grip

Keep going....you are almost there
  :D

Offline RonC

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Re: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2015, 05:24:45 PM »
That is a really fine collection!!
How does a Lyman Great Plains Rifle compare to your fine rifles?

Ron
Ron

Offline SR James

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Re: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2015, 05:32:18 PM »
Thanks to everyone for the comments. And I appreciate the way in which all of you have stepped up to encourage me to continue.  You guys would be the worst AA chapter ever.

Windriverbob, thank you for your generous offer of the newsletter.  I will be sending you my information.  A funny thing concerning the serial number of the GRRW Hawken; it is 517 and my GRRW Leman is 571.  I purchased the Leman in 1973 so I presume the Hawken is about the same age?
Peter: the Allen/Western Arms Uberti is ser. # 3904.  It is obviously not part of the Jim Bridger numbered series.
I have no idea how many were made.  Perhaps Phil Meek will chime in.

As to which I like best, it's hard to pick a favorite; they all have their charms.  I would suppose that the Stith rifle is the most authentic, but I am certainly no expert on original Hawkens.  They are all well made and all very good shooters.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 04:10:43 AM by SR James »

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2015, 05:45:02 PM »
Looking good and I hope your rack is bolted to the wall with authority.  ;D

Offline SR James

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Re: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2015, 05:53:55 PM »
The rack is bolted to the wall with many long wood screws, all screwed into studs  ;D

nosrettap1958

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Re: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2015, 04:34:27 AM »
I like them all but I have to say that Green River Hawken is stunning. Probably why they command such a premium.

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2015, 08:45:41 PM »
SR James, you have a fine collection of rifles there.

I find it interesting how much we have in common.  Like you, I longed for a GRRW factory Hawken back in the 70’s.  All I could afford at the time were their kits, of which I bought three before they went out of business in the fall of 1980.  Also, like you, I started buying a few vintage repro Hawken rifles a few years ago.  I initially focused on GRRW rifles, but when another make crossed my path, I often ended up buying it, mostly out of curiosity to see how it compared to the GRRW since many were direct competitors.

There is a lot of overlap in our collections, but not completely as we each have something that the other doesn’t.

This first rifle is one I just recently traded away, but since I still have pictures of, I thought I would include it.



Custom Rifle with Cherry Corners Components, .58 caliber

This is a custom built rifle and is stamped with the date 4-11-76, but no information as to who the builder was.  The barrel is .58 caliber, 1” x 35” straight octagon, has 7 lands/grooves, and may be a GRRW barrel.  The barrel key escutcheons are German silver and the nose cap is poured pewter.  The stock is figured maple.  The lock, breech & tang, and triggers are from Cherry Corners, and I suspect the rest of the furniture is also from Cherry Corners.

Cherry Corners was a company started by Bud Brown and operated in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s.  Brown was probably the second after Lee Paul of Yreka, CA to offer a complete parts set or kit for a Hawken rifle.

Brown sold the Cherry Corners business with all the patterns, dies, and molds for the various Hawken parts to Ithaca Gun Co. in July 1976.



Top Rifle:  Ithaca Hawken, .50 caliber

By October 1976, Ithaca Gun Co. was issuing announcements of its purchase of Cherry Corners and its plans to make a production Hawken rifle using Cherry Corners parts and designs.  The only significant variance was that Ithaca turned to Fajen to design and shape the walnut stocks for the new Ithaca Hawken.  Ithaca began shipping the new Hawken rifles at the beginning of 1977.  I’ve seen statements that Ithaca only produced their Hawken rifle for two years, but haven’t been able to verify this.  Their actual production run couldn’t be much longer than this because Ithaca sold the rights to their Hawken rifle to Navy Arms who began marketing it as the Navy Arms/Ithaca Hawken in the early 80’s.

The Ithaca Hawken above is serial number (SN) H 225.  The barrel is 1” x 32” with one twist in 66”, and apparently made by Ithaca.  The barrel key escutcheons are German silver, and interestingly the nose cap is an aluminum alloy rather than pewter or German silver.

Second Rifle:  Western Arms Jedediah Smith Commemorative Hawken by Uberti of Italy, .54 caliber

At some point in the mid- to late-70’s, Leonard Allen of Western Arms Corp began working with Uberti of Italy to produce a copy of a generic Sam Hawken rifle.  By May of 1978, Western Arms was running advertisements for a new Santa Fe Hawken rifle and a special Jedediah Smith Commemorative version.  The Santa Fe Hawken and the Jedediah Smith Commemorative Hawken are essentially the same rifle, differing only in the barrel markings and some of the metal finishes.  In addition to the Commemorative numbering on the tang, the Jedediah Smith Hawken rifles are also marked with the Santa Fe Hawken sequence of serial numbers.

The second rifle down in the photo above is marked “N 91 of One Thousand” on tang, and the SN 562 is stamped on barrel.  All the steel parts on the rifle have been browned.  It has German silver barrel key escutcheons and a German silver nose cap.  The stock is walnut with a reddish brown stain and oil finish.  The barrel is 1” x 32” straight octagon with a 1 turn in 66” twist.

Third Rifle:  Western Arms Santa Fe Hawken by Uberti of Italy, .54 caliber

The next rifle is a regular Santa Fe Hawken marketed by Western Arms Corp and so stamped on the barrel.  It is SN 2003.  This particular rifle has a color case hardened lock plate and trigger plate.  The hammer and trigger guard appear to be heat blued.  The barrel, tang, and butt plate are brown.  All the dimensions are the same as the Jedediah Smith Hawken.  The stock is walnut with same stain and oil finish as the Commemorative Hawken.  The proof mark date codes on both rifles are “AE”, indicating that these rifles were proofed (manufactured) in 1979.

The barrels on both the Santa Fe Hawken and the Jedediah Smith Commemorative are marked as .54 caliber, but it is well known that the bore is actually sized 0.53”.  This apparent discrepancy was noted in reviews of the rifle and advertising as early as 1980.  It was stated in these reviews and ads that the choice of bore diameter was not a mistake but an intentional effort to copy original Hawken rifle bores.

I have a little different theory.  As early as the 1840’s, the literature often referred to a typical Hawken rifle as carrying 32 balls-to-the-pound.  In more modern times, some writers have made the mistake of equating the number of balls-to-the-pound to the same number in modern shotgun gauges.  This is not correct.  A gun that carries 32 balls-to-the-pound does not have the same bore size as a modern 32 gauge gun.  The reference of balls-to-the-pound during the fur trade era is a measure of the ball size.  The modern shotgun gauge is a measure of the bore size.  Any muzzleloader shooter knows that it is very difficult to load a ball that is exactly the same size as the bore of the gun.  Allowance needs to be made for patching material and fouling.  The difference between the ball size and the bore size is called windage.  Windage in the 18th and early 19th centuries could be as small as 0.01” for sporting guns and rifles and as large as 0.05” for military arms.

Charles Hanson, Jr. in The Plains Rifle and John Baird in Hawken Rifles: The Mountain Man’s Choice, made the mistake of substituting shotgun gauge for balls-to-the-pound and erroneously referred to a typical Hawken rifle as being .53 caliber.  If they had taken windage into consideration, a rifle of 32 balls-to-the-pound would need a bore size no smaller than .54 caliber.  Since these two books were the primary resources available to Leonard Allen and the people at Uberti, it is easy to see how the 0.53” bore size may have come about.

Hammer asked a question about Santa Fe Hawken serial numbers and how many were made.  The highest serial number I’ve seen for a Western Arms Corp marked Hawken is SN 4053.  Around 1980, Western Arms Corp was dissolved resulting from a trade name infringement law suit by Olin Industries.  There must have been a large inventory of Santa Fe Hawken rifles with the Western Arms Corp stamp on the barrel at that time because these rifles continued to be sold by various dealers, including Allen Firearms for some years after 1980.  Considering the 1,000 Jedediah Smith Commemorative Hawken rifles that shared the same serial number range with the Santa Fe Hawken, there were apparently a little more than 3,000 Santa Fe Hawken rifles made with the Western Arms Corp. barrel stamp.

Also, in the 1980’s other companies such as the Log Cabin Shop, Track of the Wolf, and Cimarron Arms began to import Uberti Hawken rifles under their own name.  I have an Uberti Hawken kit with a Cimarron Arms barrel stamp from the time they were still in Houston, TX.  The SN on the barrel is 9481.  Uberti also supplied their Hawken rifle to distributors and dealers in Europe.  And as late as the early 2000’s, they were still being imported to the US.  Between the US and European markets, the total number of Uberti Hawken rifles made in factory finished and kit form probably runs into the tens of thousands.

This thread has a long discussion on the history of the Santa Fe Hawken for those that are interested.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=22049.msg211859#msg211859

Similarity of Ithaca Hawken to Uberti Santa Fe Hawken

Before moving on to the fourth rifle in the photo, I’ve always been amazed by the similarities between the Ithaca Hawken and the Santa Fe/Uberti Hawken.  The German silver escutcheons, bright metal nose cap, same barrel dimensions, same rifling twist, same rear sight, and both have walnut stocks.  One really has to look close at the two rifles to see their differences.  The Uberti Hawken has a slab sided forearm while the Ithaca is more rounded.  Both have too much wood left on the lock panel, but the Ithaca Hawken is better defined in the rear.  The hammers on the two rifles are a little different and so are the snails on the breech bolsters.  There are some small differences in the shape of the front trigger and in the scroll guard.

It’s almost as if Leonard Allen got a hold of one of the first Ithaca Hawken rifles off the production line and sent it to Uberti in Italy as the prototype for their rifle.  The timing barely works as the Ithaca Hawken production began at the beginning of 1977 and the Santa Fe Hawken production appears to have begun in 1979 (based on proof marks).  Uberti could have had a little over a year to study the Ithaca Hawken and set up their tooling and manufacturing systems.

Another possibility is that Leonard Allen sent Uberti a custom built Hawken that used Cherry Corners components similar to the first rifle I pictured above.  Pewter nose caps were popular on custom Hawken rifles in the 1970’s and German silver escutcheons were also common.  Either way, the Uberti Hawken seems to have been heavily influenced by the Cherry Corners/Ithaca Hawken.

Fourth Rifle:  Custom Flintlock Hawken, .54 caliber

The bottom rifle in the photo above was made in the late 1970’s by an amateur builder from Rifle, CO.  It has a tapered, 1” to ⅞”, GRRW barrel that is 36” long.  The lock is a late 1970’s era L&R flintlock Hawken lock.  The rest of the components are from Art Ressel’s Hawken Shop.  These are all top notch components and the build is way above average for an amateur builder.  The stock has a few dents and dings from use and storage, and the finish has darkened over the decades since it was new.  In other words, it has character.  Flintlocks weren’t as popular in the 70’s as they are today, so you won’t find very many vintage repro Hawken rifles with one.  Tapered barrels weren’t real popular back then, either, making this a very unusual rifle.

This next group of rifles is definitely a step up in quality and authenticity.



Top Rifle:  Art Ressel Hawken Shop Hawken, .54 caliber

This rifle was purchased in 1981 from The Hawken Shop in St. Louis, MO for $1500.  Through research, I’ve attributed it to Keith Neubauer who is shown in The Hawken Shop’s Catalog #2 and described as the prime gunsmith associated with The Hawken Shop.  It has a Bill Large barrel that is a nominal 1⅛” to 1” straight taper and 34” long.  The rest of the components are from The Hawken Shop, many of which Art Ressel had cast from original Hawken rifles in his collection.

The Hawken Shop primarily sold components parts and full kits for their Hawken rifle, but Art generally had a few finished rifles on display in the store that he had commissioned from a handful of professional builders.  He didn’t have a factory operation building rifles.  The rifles he had built using his parts and sold through his shop were truly custom rifles.  He apparently only offered finished rifles for sale for about five years.  The cost of this rifle in 1981 was almost twice the price of a GRRW Hawken in 1980, the year they went out of business.  Apparently Ressel sold very few finished rifles.

If you’re interested in more pictures and information on this rifle, I refer you to this post.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=32210.msg327943#msg327943


Second Rifle:  Green River Rifle Works “Bridger Pattern” Hawken, .54 caliber

The second rifle down is a GRRW Hawken stocked by Gardell Powell in June of 1978.  The barrel is 1⅛” x 34” straight octagon of their own manufacture.  The SN is 552.  The fancy maple stock was an extra cost upgrade.  The lock and breech are from Ron Long.

In 1975 and 1976, GRRW worked with the Montana Historical Society to build a collectable replica of the original Jim Bridger Hawken rifle in the museum’s collection that MHS was going to use in a fund raising campaign.  The original Hawken rifle was loaned to GRRW during this time to study and duplicate.  The agreement between GRRW and MHS prohibited GRRW from marketing or selling a Bridger Hawken, so GRRW made some minor changes in the pattern and marketed their rifles after 1976 simply as a Sam Hawken or a late Hawken rifle.  A few of us collectors refer to this version of the GRRW Hawken as the “Bridger Pattern” even though GRRW never used Bridger in their marketing.

The stock dimensions and barrel dimension closely duplicate the original Bridger Hawken.  The component parts were the closest to the original that were commercially available at the time.  GRRW did not do any proprietary castings of the Bridger Hawken.  That said, the GRRW “Bridger Pattern” Hawken was, and still is, the most authentic production rifle made.

Third Rifle:  Ozark Mountain Arms Hawken, .54 caliber

The next rifle down is an Ozark Mountain Arms Hawken.  This company had a convoluted history.  Milt Hudson founded the company called Mountain Arms Inc. in Ozark, MO.  It appears to have started producing Hawken rifles in 1977.  The magazine Gun World published an article on it in their October 1977 issue that was written by Bob Zwirz titled “Mountain Arms and the Hawken”.  In the November 1977 issue of Buckskin Report, John Baird has a long editorial heavily criticizing Mr. Zwirz’s piece over a number of inaccuracies unrelated to the Mountain Arms Hawken.  Baird does say that the Mountain Arms Hawken is a “near copy of a rifle made by Ed White (now deceased), who used Art Ressel’s original S. Hawken as his model…We say ‘near copy’ because, in the interests of mass production, some modifications were necessary in the Mountain Arms version, ie: 1” barrel instead of a 1⅛” tapered barrel as on the original, minor variation in hardware, etc.  Mountain Arms’ Hawken replica is, in fact, a copy of a copy…”

In 1979, Milt Hudson left Mountain Arms Inc. and formed a new company called The Hawken Armory located in Ozark, MO.  Mr. Hudson had apparently been crowded out of Mountain Arms Inc. by some new partners he had taken in.  The new owners changed the name of the company to Ozark Mountain Arms and moved it to Branson, MO.  The company operated there until late 1983 or beginning of 1984 when it changed hands again and was moved to Ashdown, AR.  In the meantime, The Hawken Armory had apparently changed owners and moved to Hot Springs, AR in 1981.  You still with me?

I’ve seen a number of Hawken rifles marked with Mountain Arms and Ozark Mtn. Arms, but none marked Hawken Armory, so far.

The rifle in my collection is marked Ozark Mtn. Arms, though the stamp is so faint, it is hard to see.  There is no serial number and no address, and therefore, no way to date this rifle.  The rifle is stocked in a beautiful piece of tiger striped maple and stained in a nice, warm honey-colored stain.  The barrel is 1” x 33¼” straight octagon made by Green Mountain.  The lock is an L&R percussion Hawken lock with a copy of the hammer from the Hawken in Ressel’s collection.  I once thought it was the same hammer from The Hawken Shop until an acquaintance pointed out that they are slightly different in some dimensions.  The triggers are from L&R.  The trigger guard and butt plate are the pattern that was available from a number of suppliers and still available today.  The entry thimble and upper pipes are fancier than seen of most repro Hawken rifles.  The upper pipes were probably machined by Ozark Mtn. Arms and the entry pipe may be a proprietary casting.

The Hawken Shop Hawken has parts that were cast from at least two originals in Ressel’s collection.  The Ozark Mtn. Arms Hawken is a copy of a copy of one of those two originals.  So in a way, the two replicas are an interpretation of the same original Hawken.  I once thought that Ozark Mtn. Arms used some of The Hawken Shop parts on their rifle, but now realize that isn’t the case.  The Ozark Mtn. Arms parts developed independently.

The Ozark Mtn. Arms Hawken is a good lookin’ rifle, especially with the fancy wood.  As Baird pointed out, it is not an exact duplicate of an original Hawken.  The biggest compromise is in the 1” straight octagon barrel, but that isn’t too bad since the 1” barrel makes for an easy to handle rifle.

Fourth Rifle:  GRRW “Transition Pattern” Hawken, .54 caliber

The bottom rifle is another GRRW Hawken stocked by Gardell Powell in June of 1976.  The GRRW barrel is 1” x 32” straight octagon.  The SN is 315, which puts it in what I call the “Transition Pattern”.  The figured maple stock may have been an extra cost upgrade, though the stock finish and/or stain has darkened so over the decades, it’s hard to see the curl.  The lock is from Ron Long, but I’m not sure who made the breech.  The butt plate and trigger guard are the generic commercial items similar to what’s on the Ozark Mtn. Arms Hawken.  The nose cap is a two-piece brazed cap that was made in the GRRW machine shop.  The thimbles and barrel keys were also made by GRRW.

In the eight or so years of operation, GRRW had two set Hawken patterns that included a relatively standard set of component parts.  One was in their early years and the other after the Bridger Commemorative Hawken project was completed in late 1976.  In between the two is what I call their “Transition Pattern” Hawken.

One sees a variety of component parts during the “Transition” period and more variation in stock details from builder to builder and in rifles built by the same builder over time.  There was a bit of individual expression and experimentation in this period.  This individual expression would not be seen again except when a customer ordered several extra cost upgrades that called for a custom Hawken.  Another interesting observation is that nearly all of the half stock Hawken rifles built before the end of 1976 have a 1” barrel.  And with a few exceptions nearly all the half stock Hawken rifles built after 1976 have a 1⅛” barrel.  I know of only about three GRRW half stock Hawken rifles built after 1976 that have 1” barrels.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 06:04:14 AM by Mtn Meek »
Phil Meek

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2015, 09:28:58 PM »
A funny thing concerning the serial number of the GRRW Hawken; it is 517 and my GRRW Leman is 571.  I purchased the Leman in 1973 so I presume the Hawken is about the same age?

SR James, I assume your GRRW Leman is a half stock Leman Trade Rifle and not the full stock Leman Indian Rifle that GRRW also made.

With two exceptions, each model of GRRW guns had its own serial number range.  The exception is that the Leman Indian Rifle and Poor Boy rifle shared a serial number range in the later years of operation.

GRRW made 680 half stock Hawken rifles and something close to 2,000 Leman Trade Rifles.  In addition, they started making the Leman Trade Rifle a year (1972) before the Hawken rifle (1973).

GRRW’s early records are incomplete, and I don’t have an exact date for your Leman Trade Rifle, SN 571, but your purchase date of 1973 is consistent with this relatively low SN.

Based on the SN for your GRRW Hawken, it was probably made in late 1977 or early 1978.
Phil Meek

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2015, 10:22:27 PM »
A funny thing concerning the serial number of the GRRW Hawken; it is 517 and my GRRW Leman is 571.  I purchased the Leman in 1973 so I presume the Hawken is about the same age?

SR James, I assume your GRRW Leman is a half stock Leman Trade Rifle and not the full stock Leman Indian Rifle that GRRW also made.

With two exceptions, each model of GRRW guns had its own serial number range.  The exception is that the Leman Indian Rifle and Poor Boy rifle shared a serial number range in the later years of operation.

GRRW made 680 half stock Hawken rifles and something close to 2,000 Leman Trade Rifles.  In addition, they started making the Leman Trade Rifle a year (1972) before the Hawken rifle (1973).

GRRW’s early records are incomplete, and I don’t have an exact date for your Leman Trade Rifle, SN 571, but your purchase date of 1973 is consistent with this relatively low SN.

Based on the SN for your GRRW Hawken, it was probably made in late 1977 or early 1978.

They apparently sold a bunch of guns so why did they go broke and become a thing of ill repute?

Bob Roller

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2015, 11:37:56 PM »
They apparently sold a bunch of guns so why did they go broke and become a thing of ill repute?

Bob Roller

That's a good question, Bob, and one I've thought a lot about.

Dr. Gary "Doc" White on his old website had a statement something to the effect that they were a victim of President Carter's economy.  I think there is a lot truth to that.

The late 1970's and early 1980's, as you likely recall, were a period of double digit inflation and multiple recessions due to oil price shock's and poor economic policy by the government.  It was a hard time for most businesses, especially small businesses.

GRRW never had a problem with demand--they always had a long back order for their guns.  But they had cash flow problems.  They often had more money going out than coming in, especially towards the end.  They were also plagued with supply problems for component parts.  Some of their suppliers likely also had cash flow difficulty.  In any event at any one time, they may have had a number of guns in-progress waiting on a key part.  This drew out their delivery times and upset customers.

Inflation was a big part of their problems.  Notice in this graph I put together of the price of their half stock Leman and Hawken rifles versus time that the finished rifles increased at twice the rate as the kits.  This means that labor costs were going up faster than material costs as the finished rifles had a lot more labor involved that the kits.  Remember CoLA's--Cost of Living Allowance?  Wage increases based on inflation in the prior period.



In spite of this steady increase in the price of their guns, they still weren't covering their manufacturing costs.  Towards the end, they were having to borrow money from the bank each month to pay their bills.  Their interest payments alone must have been very high when the bank was charging double digit interest rates.  Finally, the bank realized that GRRW wasn't going to be able to turn their financial situation around, and to cut its losses, the bank called in their loans and forced GRRW into bankruptcy.

When a company gets into this situation, the only way it can survive is to make some very hard decisions--meaning cut its work force--to get its cost structure in line with its revenue.  This is hard for a small company when the workers are close friends of the owners and mangers.  In fact, some of the workers were shareholders in the company themselves.  They would have had to figure out what each product cost to make and how much money they were making or losing on that product.  The operation needed to be reconfigured to focus on the profitable products and stop making the unprofitable products and downsize accordingly.  This is MBA kind of stuff and something that small companies don't often do.

When GRRW abruptly shut down, it left all those people that ordered guns and were waiting on delivery hanging. They had to get in line with the rest of the creditors in the bankruptcy process.  Essentially, they all lost their deposits on the guns they ordered and were very unhappy about it, as anyone would be.  So the ill repute largely came from these people that lost money and from the customers in the prior years that were unsatisfied with the long delivery delays.

GRRW wasn't the only company that suffered this fate.  Sharon Rifle Barrel Co. went bankrupt in 1978.  Ithaca Gun Co. sold their Hawken business to Navy Arms around 1980 because it wasn't making money.  In addition to the lawsuit from Olin causing Leonard Allen to reorganize and change the name of his company, the financial problems probably put a stop to his and Uberti's plans to build a plant in the US to make the Baird-Webber J&S Hawken rifle and other firearms.

It's hard to run a business and a small business is probably more susceptible to external economic pressures and swings than a large business.

Phil Meek
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 06:07:07 AM by Mtn Meek »
Phil Meek

nosrettap1958

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Re: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2015, 12:39:51 AM »
Excellent discussion guys of all the great Hawken rifles that were available during that period. Takes me back to argument we had over who built the better Hawken rifle. Of course Green River with their Bill Large then 'Doc' White in-house built barrels and the Sharon Hawken with their own in-house built barrel and Ozark Mountain with their Green Mountain barrels, but I never saw a direct comparison between the three as we have here. But, I still think I'm right after nearly 4 decades.  ;D

But reviewing the two identified custom built Hawken rifles from Don Stith and Art Ressel those 2 rifles seem to have the cleanest and sweetest lines of all the Hawken rifles pictured.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2016, 07:22:33 AM by crawdad »

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2015, 01:19:04 AM »
But reviewing the two identified custom built Hawken rifles from Don Stith and Art Ressel those 2 rifles seem to have the cleanest and sweetest lines of all the Hawken rifles pictured. Who inherited these kits and are selling them now guys?

I'm not sure I understand your question regarding Don Stith kits.  He is still selling them.

As far as the Art Ressel Hawken, that kit is still available from the present Hawken Shop in Oak Harbor, WA.

https://www.thehawkenshop.com/hawken_rifles.htm

It is pricey, but it appears to have all the parts that Art Ressel cast from his original Hawken rifles.

Jim Parker posted a good demonstration of assembling the Hawken Shop kit here.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=32088.0

If you wanted to duplicate one of GRRW Hawken rifles, Doc White sold or traded the GRRW master stock pattern for the Bridger Hawken to TOTW.  Their part number for that stock is STK-JB-17-M1.  The last digit in the part numbers specifies the quality of wood up to M4.  You can get this stock with a straight 1-1/8" barrel channel or with a tapered 1-1/8" to 1" channel.  The Ron Long designed lock and triggers are available from R.E. Davis.  Track still sells the same butt plate and trigger guard that GRRW used.  Or you can order the complete kit for the Bridger pattern Hawken from Track here:

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/615/1/JIM-BRIDGER-HAWKEN-RIFLE-PARTS-LIST

Fortunately, these kits are all still available.  It just takes money.
Phil Meek

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2015, 01:47:19 AM »

 Helmut Mohr who has a gun shop in Mayen Hausen Germany lost several thousand dollars with the collapse of GRRW and he was told rifles would be delivered to him at the International Muzzle Loading Rifle competition at Quantico,Va.that year (1980). For a long time afterward he would have me check out whoever he wanted to buy from here in America.As he said "To see what kind of gangsters they were". Guenter Stifter who has fine cut flints had me call the Postal Inspectors on one outfit that gave him a run around on some items he had ordered and paid for in advance. The Postal cops got them moving and quickly. Sad commentary on some people's business ethics.
Taking advance pay and then spending the money and THEN not having a pay day to look forward to can be the death of any small shop. I refuse to take a dime until the parts(s) are ready to go and right now my plate runneth over.

Bob Roller
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 04:56:20 PM by Tim Crosby »

nosrettap1958

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Re: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2015, 02:29:06 AM »
I'm confused.  I got my tongue all wrapped around my tonsils while I was typing and didn't proof read my post. A big apology Don.

Great site!!!!

http://donstith.com/muzzle_loading_rifles.html
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 02:46:24 AM by crawdad »

Offline Martin S.

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Re: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2015, 01:18:58 AM »
Excellent discussion.

I have seen 2 GRRW Hawken rifles on the TOTW website recently.

Is there a foolproof way to tell which guns are the "Bridger" version?

Is the one and one eighth barrel the key difference?

Is there anything else I should look for?

Thanks for a  most enlightening post and discussion!

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2015, 03:30:40 AM »
Yes, one can identify what we call a "Bridger" pattern versus a MHS Bridger Commemorative Hawken and the earlier patterns.

The "Bridger" pattern will have a 1-1/8" barrel, Ron Long lock and triggers, and a serial number greater than 364.  They will usually have "GRRW" over "ROOSEVELT, UTAH" stamped on the top flat of the barrel.  The caliber, serial number, and makers mark will usually be stamped on the left oblique flat near the breech.  The two rifles that recently sold on TOTW were of this pattern.

Here are markings from a couple "Bridger" pattern rifles.




The Bridger Commemorative Hawken was a collectible rifle that GRRW made for the Montana Historical Society.  There were only 75 of these made.  The top flat has "S. HAWKEN, ST. LOUIS" stamped on it.  This is the only markings on the visible flats of the barrel.  The GRRW and address stamp along with a special serial number stamp of "BRIDGER COMMEMORATIVE" over "SER. NO. xx" (where xx is 1 through 75) is stamped on the bottom flat of the barrel.  I've seen the makers mark on the bottom flat or the side flat near the breech on these.

This is a sample of the stamp on the bottom flat of a Commemorative Hawken.


A friend of mine recently came across BRIDGER COMMEMORATIVE SER. NO 1 at a Kansas gun show.  He didn't initially recognize it for what it was because all he could see on the barrel was the "S. HAWKEN, ST. LOUIS" stamp and nearly didn't buy it.  The price was too good to pass up, though.  After he got it home and took the barrel out of the stock and saw the markings on the bottom flat, he almost had a heart attack!  He called me by phone shortly after that and was so excited I couldn't really understand what he was saying.  He finally sent me some pictures of the rifle and barrel markings and I got what he was trying to tell me on the phone.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 06:15:24 AM by Mtn Meek »
Phil Meek

Offline Martin S.

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Re: The Accidental Vintage Repro Hawken Collection
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2015, 11:55:45 AM »
Thanks for the information.

If I had known those last two guns were the "Bridger" variety, I would have bought one.

I'll know better next time.

Thanks again!