Entry pipe inletting advice solicited

[blackjack]

Okay, I've built two rifles now and am still not pleased with the entry pipe on either of them.  I'm at the point on my next build that it occurs to me soliciting advice might be wise.  So here's the pics.





I have played with this on previous rifles, usually made too big of an inlet and had to fill the gaps with putty or patches that look crappy to the careful observer.  What I'm looking for is any tips or suggestions to get this done right.  I have two more builds in mind and really want the entry pipe iinletting to be correct on these ones.

Any suggestions, observatons, criticisms, instruction or general bloviating is welsome.

[PPatch]

What tools are you using, that looks like a pretty rough inlet so far. Your goal is to take it down until the ramrod will enter smoothly and no more. You should have a clean inlet with the wood supporting the pipe. Are you using some sort of coloring or blacking media to indicate where to remove wood? I use a kerosene lamp to blacken the underside of the metal, folks use other media. At this point in your inlet the edges should be quite defined and you only taking off small slices of wood. The process is blacken, lightly tap the pipe to show transfer then cut (scrape, whatever is needed) and repeat, repeat, repeat... it is not a fast process. Take your time and be aware of everything about the process and were your pipe is in relation to the ramrod hole. your tools must be very sharp and watch the grain direction so you don't chip out a big OOPs in it.

dave

And ADD: some inlet a regular pipe first then inlet the tail of the entry pipe down to the regular pipe inlet. Just another way of going about it.

[blackjack]

Tks Dave.  I know I need to slow down on this one.  I've been using the Jarrows inlet black which doesn't make it easy.  I think I may try lamp black to see if it is better.  (The pics show the first raw cut, about 1/8" inside the final dimensions of the inlet.)

[oldtravler61]

Patch is on target. No expert here either. But make sure your chisel are real sharp. One tool I use is small files when so get close. Not the norm. But they help me make a clean inlet. Also I use candle soot. Simple an it's what the old boy's used. Just remember to take it S L O W an if the get in a hurry walk away an come back latter. Also check the tutorials on the site. Good luck.

[smylee grouch]

You might want to put a center line on the forestock and entry thimble tab to help keep thing lined up straight every time you transfer color along with the other sugestions.

[Dave B]

You have been given some solid advice to get you going. I like to put a dowel in the rod pipe portion that lays in the channel to keep it square wth the world. As you start inletting it is easy to get off and the center line as prevouly mentioned is a very good Idea. I dont like messing around with a lot of extra wood on the fore stock I take it down to the almost ready to put the finish on before inletting my rod pipes and entry pipe. I like lamp black for spotting the inlet points. If you have done  your shaping correclty the rod pipe should be laying on the forestock ready to be spotted on to the wood with lamp black. I like using an X-acto blade to trace the entry pipe finial on the fore stock and set it in. Good luck with your project.

[WKevinD]

What I usually do is inlet one of my forward pipes in the rear entry position first.(assuming your entry pipe matches your forward pipes) It's alot easier to inlet one of these without the tail and then inlet the tail, it's easier to get a good tight outline tracing and initial cut.  Then like everybody else say s"sharp tools, go slow, be patient"

[Eric Krewson]

I am a beginner as well and inlet one of the other pipes first at the entry pipe position because they are the same as the entry pipe. That gives you a place to settle in the entry pipe as you inlet for the extension.

Hard to tell from the picture but the actual pipe inlet is already done, guess you can tell I like soot from my oil lamp. The hickory side rails are there to keep me from gouging wood in the wrong spot when I chisel off all that extra wood on the forestock.

I am real slow and probably spent most of a day on this inlet with very sharp chisels and a riffler file.



Here is the same entry pipe in place;

[Joe S.]

no expert here either but perhaps your in to much of a hurry.Check your chisels to make sure they are sharp.I found my center and did all my slots in the channel first dropped the pipes in place and slid the ram rod along to see it was going to ride the channel and then inlet the pipes.Not sure if that's the proper way but it worked for me.Probably a two plus days project to get em all in.Check your pipes to make sure they are true,had some of the fins that the pins go thru where slightly bent and this wanted to force them off center.Mark them front,center and you know where the entry one goes.You really need to sneak up on these pieces with a radius on them,you can over inlet them quick and end up with gaps if you rush it.Good luck.

[Nordnecker]

Blackjack, I'm right there with you inasmuch as entry pipes are very challenging to get "just so". A centerline is a good thing, But, if the tab on the pipe is off a little, your slot has to be off a little, too. I do think your tools need sharpening.
I have a little stubby japanese chisel that I really like for inletting. I didn't buy it- it came in a box of tools that I was given. At first I thought it was just a cheap marking knife. Then I saw that it was hollow ground on the back of the blade. The blade is only about an inch long by 1/2 wide. I'm a straightforward western woodworker, but this little tool is a real gem.

[Mike Brooks]

You need sharper tools and harder wood. Use your inleting black sparingly. If you're getting it all over the place you're using too much. SLOW DOWN. Pipes get easier after a couple hundred guns. I can do a whole set of pipes in 45 minutes or so, but I've been at this a while.
 You have to think through the process and visualize where the pipe goes and what you need to remove to get it there. It's sort of a Jedi thing...just like the rest of building guns.

[BJH]

Black Jack, first sharpen your tools. To inlet a rod pipe my way, you need a 3/32 wide chisel, a 1/4 inch wide chisel, a gouge that will be slightly smaller than your pipe and a scribe. Lay out your centerline on the bottom of your forend. If the pipe is not spot welded as some are solder the bottom tab. I trim the tab back about 1/4 inch from each end so the inletting slot doesn't show when finished. Now I lay out and inlet the tab of the pipe, this routinely goes through into the barrel channel. Inlet the slot for the tab. Be neat the front end of the tab inlet needs to be reasonably accurately placed to help the process. You will blunt your chisel on the bottom of the barrel. Resharpen as necessary. Now its time for inletting the tube, as attended in another post, it makes things easier to use one of the front pipes to lay out the tube inlet. Carefully with a SHARP pencil lay out the outline of the tube portion of the inlet. At the front edge of the tube inlet I now make my stop cut with a sharp pointed knife to nearly finish depth. Doing forend pipes I make this cut at both ends. Using one of the forend pipes as a guide, inlet the tube portion of the pipe, using your gouge and 1/4 inch chisel. When a ramrod sized dowel barely enters the hole in the forend now it's time to switch to the rear pipe and inlet the return. If you take any job down to its most simple components it makes it much easier. The neatly inletted sharp shoulder of the tab inlet will help you lay out and inlet the return. Pay close attention to your center lines as you go. BJH

BTW Jarrows inletting black works better if you use a acid brush with the bristles trimmed to 1/4 inch or less. The I brush off the excess on the mouth of the jar as if I were painting. Less is more when brushing inletting black on a part.

[okieboy]

 This is another task where where removing small amounts of wood slowly with small scrapers can be effective.

[Acer Saccharum]

I've been building for a while, and I find the pipe is one of the hardest tasks to get right. Thirty rifles later, I feel like I'm 'getting it', so you're not alone in your frustration.

The trick, mentioned before, of the dowel in the pipe to keep it straight is a good one.

[smallpatch]

The two most time consuming, aggravating in letting items are the entry pipe, and the buttplate.  You are in letting two directions at once.  You are also in the end grain in several locations, so tools have to be SHARP, and you must have a repeatable way to mark them each time you put them in the inlet.

Otherwise, there is no way to get them tight.  Like Tom said, thirty rifles later......I'm gettin it.....sort of!

[Nate McKenzie]

Smoking the parts with a kerosene lamp with no chimney or a candle is much less messy than inletting black.  I find pointy tails easier than squared ones.  Chisels should be honed scary sharp, enough to shave your arm. Inlet a forward thimble first and then the tail. Keep trying the rammer to gauge depth.

[Dennis Glazener]

Smoking the parts with a kerosene lamp with no chimney or a candle is much less messy than inletting black.

Good advice given by others so I won't add to that. I will mention that I prefer to use Permatex Prussian Blue. $3.99 a tube at NAPA http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Prussian-Blue-Bearings-Valves-Gears-Other-Close-Tolerance-Or-Machined-Clean-Up-Permatex/_/R-BK_80038_0421636566
Jim Chambers reccomended it and it works better than anything else I have used, easy clean-up. I apply with an old soft bristle tooth brush.
Dennis

[jerrywh]

 The secret is patience. If one is in a hurry he should buy a Thompson center to shoot till he gets the real thing done.

[blackjack]

Thanks so much for all the insight and experience relayed so far.  Went out to work on it for a while tonight.  First sharpened all my chisels, even the ones I thought were sharp, three levels of stone then leather strop with jewelers paste worked into it.  Then started into lowering the wood within the markings I made first with pencil and then with xacto knife.  Stopped a couple times just to take a break and mentally review what I'm doing.

So far this one is much better, but it's still not perfect.  I'll keep at it tomorrow when I get some time and perhaps later this week.  Small steps take patience that isn't my strong suite, but I'm learning.  Good results are encouraging and now I know that all I have to do is hurry up a little to create an ugly unconcealable mistake.  Anyway, thanks again and I'll post when it's done.

Partly done:

[smylee grouch]

Its looking better but I still dont see a center line. 

[Acer Saccharum]

Make certain the tail is formed properly to begin with! Yes, they are sometimes mis-formed. Hold it alongside your stock to see that it fits the profile. Put a ramrod through it to see if the tail is bent up or down too much.

When I let these pipes in, I use a mallet to tap the pipe to make it transfer the inlet black. Keep an eye on the pipe as you inlet, to make sure it keeps its proper shape. Well, DOH, I found out the tail sometimes bends during the inlet, and it can even flatten out. This can cause no end of chasing your own tail.

[Dennis Glazener]

When I let these pipes in, I use a mallet to tap the pipe to make it transfer the inlet black. Keep an eye on the pipe as you inlet, to make sure it keeps its proper shape. Well, DOH, I found out the tail sometimes bends during the inlet, and it can even flatten out. This can cause no end of chasing your own tail.

Acer is probably a little more delicate than I am but I always put a tight fitting dowel in the pipe to make sure I don't bend it when I am tapping it in to transfer the inlet blue. The dowel also helps insure the bottom of the pipe is seated far enough to clear the rr going in.
Dennis

[David Rase]

The two most time consuming, aggravating in letting items are the entry pipe, and the buttplate.  You are in letting two directions at once.  You are also in the end grain in several locations, so tools have to be SHARP, and you must have a repeatable way to mark them each time you put them in the inlet.

Otherwise, there is no way to get them tight.  Like Tom said, thirty rifles later......I'm gettin it.....sort of!

Dane,
I have to respectfully disagree with your statement that you are inletting in two directions at once when it comes entry pipes.  I think that is a common misconception that only adds to the aggravation during the inletting process.  I am of the opinion that an entry pipe is inlet in the downward direction only.  I like to make my own pipes from flat sheet material.  When laying out the pattern I make the tab extra long.  By making the tab this way, I am able to use it as a guide during inletting.  How do I do this you ask.  First I like to find the centerline of the ramrod groove and then remove the wood for the tab completely through to the bottom of the barrel channel.  The long tab in conjunction with the through slot works as a guide holding the position of the entry pipe stable.  The pipe can only go into the wood one way, straight down.  Another technique I use is to round the bottom half of the lower forestock as close to the final shape as possible.  Excavating an entry pipe tang deep into a square lower forestock increases the risk of gap-os-is.  Following the advice of others I then use a transfer medium and work the pipe down into position a bit at a time. I am careful to continue to remove any wood standing proud of the metal finial during the process.  This helps to eliminate widening the inlet due to keeping the inlet depth shallow.  The deeper the inlet, the better your chances are of skewing the chisel cuts and causing gaps in the inlet.  Once the entry pipe is completely inlet I pin the pipe in place and then cut/file the tab flush with the bottom barrel flat.  A long pipe that is up against the bottom flat of the barrel is never going to loosen up and rock.
David      

[smallpatch]

David,

Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks? 

Never thought about leaving the tab long.... Always cut it first To conform to the web, then bitch because I struggle to keep it straight.

Next time my friend!!!

[Acer Saccharum]

Gap-os-is.

I just learned a new word today.