Author Topic: help identify signature (Read 12426 times)

Jim Filipski · « **on:** November 07, 2015, 07:54:14 PM »

I'm working on a new restoration / conservation project and discovered a fleeting signature or initials on the top barrel flat.
Normally when I photograph something like this it is easier to make out then it is with the naked eye but this one is very different then what I think I see with my eye by letting the light play on the barrel at different angles and moving it around. Today finally got close to what I am seeing in my mind with these few photos.
Wondering if anyone could put in their 2 cents as to the name they see?
I'm not going to list the ideas I have already so as not to influence your answers. Barrel is 46.5 " long I figure it was made last quarter of the 18th C or early 19th C in Pennsylvania originally flint but converted to percussion.
Let me know your thoughts
Jim

JCKelly · « **Reply #1 on:** November 08, 2015, 07:54:24 PM »

It would be really cool to see pix of the stock, even the patchbox style

I would guess P(eter) Moll.

Jim Filipski · « **Reply #2 on:** November 11, 2015, 04:40:48 AM »

Quote from: JCKelly on November 08, 2015, 07:54:24 PM

It would be really cool to see pix of the stock, even the patchbox style

I would guess P(eter) Moll.

First off I have to say the stock architecture will be no real help. It obviously was a latter restock of parts of an existing older piece. You will notice that the trigger guard rear extension was broken off and it was inlet into the stock for the broken part. Patch box is interesting and the buttplate appears to have held the actuating rod earlier in its life but the restocker put the rod into the toeplate and just added a small woodscrew to fill the hole in the top of the BP extension.

E.vonAschwege · « **Reply #3 on:** November 17, 2015, 11:34:58 PM »

Hey Jim,
That's a really tough puzzle, which I imagine is why we haven't had much response. I'm not sure what to make of the signature, and even more confused by the patchbox and hardware. The buttplate and triggerguard don't have any filed moldings or shapes that speak to any particular region or maker that I'm well versed with. The wide bow and narrow grip rail make me think early 19th century. Is there a sideplate?
-Eric

Shreckmeister · « **Reply #4 on:** November 18, 2015, 12:10:01 AM »

Am I seeing the remnant of the name Durr with a flourish coming off the left top of the D? My best guess,
but I am familiar with the name and not his work. Sometimes he shows as Derr and sometimes as Durr.
I have a spokeshave signed J Durr.

Jim Filipski · « **Reply #5 on:** November 18, 2015, 07:54:54 PM »

Ok to answer some of the above questions: Eric, no there really isn't a side plate however it looks like some one added a plain piece of brass stock ( about 1.5" x .75" ) some tome in the 20th century. The mortice shows that it is a more modes addition. We must remember that this has to be a restock of old parts ( maybe they weren't from the same gun?My first impression when I received it it was a blacksmith restocking of late 18th C parts)

As to "J Durr" J DUL is one of my guesses so J Dur could be close I just can not see the 2nd r .
A few others with the stingiest being J Dill ( Not "Gill"), J.D. something and the strangeness of this sig is if you flip over the barrel
None of the letters make since except you see a very prominent Script "M" which is the 3 engraved lines after the D if you put the barrel in the correct position.
So in that case there would be only 3 letters total in script JDW
I have a bunch more ideas but I'm at work now and do not have my notes I will post them later.
The patch box really puzzles me because the engraving is rather fine and good quality Just never seen that shape before
Also The signature is aligned at it's top by the edge of the barrel flat …can't say as I have seen that before either. (?)
Jim

Bill Paton · « **Reply #6 on:** November 18, 2015, 10:21:49 PM »

What is the patch box release like? Bill Paton

Jim Filipski · « **Reply #7 on:** November 19, 2015, 02:39:04 AM »

Quote from: Bill Paton on November 18, 2015, 10:21:49 PM

What is the patch box release like? Bill Paton

Again Since this is a restock the latch has been changed. On the original rifle the actuation rod would have come in from the top of the butt plate...on this restock it comes in from the toe plate / a crude toeplate with a thinned forward finial to be press to actuate the hidden rod. The latch itself is a multi piece mechanical one, not a simple spring. I have not yet removed the butt plate to fully examine it.

Jim Filipski · « **Reply #8 on:** November 19, 2015, 02:51:47 AM »

Ok Here are some of the guesses I have come up with. They are based on looking at the script from different lighting directions over a few weeks time. The most obvious being J DILL, or J D W......alternately possibly JDUL, JOUL or JOW

Now if the first letter is not a J then a Script "T" or an "F" So besides changing out the J in the above guess one could substitute a "T" or an "F" for the first character TDILL, FDILL, FDW, TDW, TDUL, FDUL, FOUL, TOUL, TOW, FOW, & TOLL

erin · « **Reply #9 on:** November 19, 2015, 03:30:57 AM »

Jim, if you were to put a piece of paper over the signature and rub a lead pencil over the paper, it might bring more of the characters.

Marshall

Jim Filipski · « **Reply #10 on:** November 19, 2015, 04:05:11 AM »

Quote from: erin on November 19, 2015, 03:30:57 AM

Jim, if you were to put a piece of paper over the signature and rub a lead pencil over the paper, it might bring more of the characters.

Marshall

First thing I tried! No Luck: script cut too light & barrel oxidation too high Did it many times with different weights of paper stock

E.vonAschwege · « **Reply #11 on:** November 19, 2015, 06:41:47 AM »

Do you have any engravers wax for copying engraving? Pretty sure black shoe polish would work too - rub it into what's left of the engraving, wipe away excess, then lay a piece of paper over it and burnish it - essentially makes a little intaglio print of the engraving. That's worked for me when the pencil trick hasn't.
-Eric

Bill Paton · « **Reply #12 on:** November 19, 2015, 11:23:34 AM »

Jim,

Look at the four John Derr sigs, boxes, and toe plate releases in the library. If the toe plate releases are like those, and since the stock architecture looks right, maybe Derr had something to do with the restocking. I have access to those rifles if you need any other info about them.

Bill Paton

Jim Filipski · « **Reply #13 on:** November 26, 2015, 12:40:10 AM »

Quote from: Bill Paton on November 19, 2015, 11:23:34 AM

Jim,

Look at the four John Derr sigs, boxes, and toe plate releases in the library. If the toe plate releases are like those, and since the stock architecture looks right, maybe Derr had something to do with the restocking. I have access to those rifles if you need any other info about them.

Bill Paton

Bill can you point me in the direction of those 4 rifles I went to the Derr section but it is empty
Jim

Bill Paton · « **Reply #14 on:** November 26, 2015, 12:17:44 PM »

Jim, Go to "Home" , then “Virtual Museum and Library....", then “ID by Signature and Patchbox”, then “D”, and you will find “Derr”. Open that and see the rifles.

Good luck, Bill

rich pierce · « **Reply #15 on:** November 27, 2015, 05:06:49 AM »

I love the patchbox and its engraving. Have not seen that shape finial before. But it's symmetry suggests a fairly early date to me. Maybe 1770's or 1780's? Buttplate dimensions? Barrel at breech?

Jim Filipski · « **Reply #16 on:** November 28, 2015, 11:46:22 PM »

Quote from: rich pierce on November 27, 2015, 05:06:49 AM

I love the patchbox and its engraving. Have not seen that shape finial before. But it's symmetry suggests a fairly early date to me. Maybe 1770's or 1780's? Buttplate dimensions? Barrel at breech?

Hi Rich,
It is very possible that all these parts were left over random pieces and someone put them together sometime in the 1st half of the 19th century. It has been in the person's family for that long so I know much of the family's history.
Barrel breech is .994" top to bottom & averages about .991" across the other flats.

Butt plate is 4.63" high & 1.59" at the widest Top extension 2.256"

Jim

Jim Filipski · « **Reply #17 on:** November 28, 2015, 11:55:34 PM »

Quote from: Bill Paton on November 26, 2015, 12:17:44 PM

Jim, Go to "Home" , then “Virtual Museum and Library....", then “ID by Signature and Patchbox”, then “D”, and you will find “Derr”. Open that and see the rifles.

Good luck, Bill

Thanks Bill : I found them. I can't say that Derr's signature is even close to the one on the barrel in question.

Also again all attempts at any type of rubbings fail. However I did notice that with the black wax in the engraving and the barrel flat wiped clean ( giving it a matte finish 9 I was able to play the light across it a bit better today
Photo below: Please note I flipped the barrel upside down for the last shot which give one a better look at the engraving cuts

This shot is with the barrel upside down

Tom Currie · « **Reply #18 on:** November 29, 2015, 01:43:25 AM »

Shumway's Long rifles of note vol 1 has a another Durr ( Derr ) rifle on page 102.

.

Shreckmeister · « **Reply #19 on:** November 29, 2015, 03:24:45 AM »

Upside down I clearly see the word man Could your upside down actually be right side up

Jim Filipski · « **Reply #20 on:** November 29, 2015, 03:41:08 AM »

Quote from: Shreckmeister on November 29, 2015, 03:24:45 AM

Upside down I clearly see the word man Could your upside down actually be right side up

Well...I have no Idea! In a way; it would make more since that the script was cut using the lower edge of the barrel flat as the justified ground ( would't it?) The other way there appears to be more script letters, however it is justified to the top edge of the barrel flat ( which I thought very odd from the start!)

bama · « **Reply #21 on:** December 03, 2015, 06:16:19 PM »

Jim I can not help you with the name but I believe the last picture you posted that you state that you turn the picture upside down is the correct orientation. If you look at the engraving cuts used to form the letters they indicate that they were cut from the bottom edge of the flat and from left to right.

Even for a parts gun it is a pretty nice old gal.

Jim

Jim Filipski · « **Reply #22 on:** June 25, 2016, 06:13:39 PM »

Well folks: My final thoughts on this signature

J Dull There was a Jacob Dull working in Lancaster in 1800 So that is in close proximity to the Family that owned it.
However I still think it was a later restock of "Dull's parts"
Thanks for all your suggestions
Jim

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Author Topic: help identify signature (Read 12426 times)

erin