Author Topic: Who was the maker ?  (Read 16081 times)

Offline Molly

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Re: Who was the maker ?
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2015, 08:09:56 PM »
I have all three editions of Whisker's books on VA gunmakers.  He only shows "John", "Jacob" and "John Jacob".  I have not made an effort to establish if that is three different people, two different people or just one maker and while there are many Sheetz I don't think there are a dozen beginning with "J".

bamma:

That is a knock-out spectacular rifle!  I like the idea of a patch box patterned after an original but I think I do like the original on the rifle in question best.  Also very much like the "wire" waves.  A simply beautiful work of art.  I also have visited your web site and saw others.  Your cup of talent runneth over!  Up to another one?

Offline Avlrc

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Re: Who was the maker ?
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2015, 08:21:04 PM »
I think I said about half a dozen. Lets see off the top of  my head.  Here where I live they was 1.Jacob Sheetz , his son 2. Jacob Dice Sheetz , then over in Jefferson County3 John Jacob Sheetz, down in Augusta County Virginia, 4.John Shetz, Sheets, Shitz & Sheetz. that is @ least 4 ways I have seen his name. Then they was at least one 5.John Sheets gunsmith in Ohio, so that's five & I might have missed one or two. The Henry Sheets gunsmith  from Virginia who went to Missouri , had a son John, who no doubt worked for his father and may have built guns can't remember. At the time of his death he was a clerk. He was the John Sheets who Jesse James killed.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 08:25:11 PM by Avlrc »

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Who was the maker ?
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2015, 09:25:30 PM »
I used to own a signed D (avid) Sheets rifle. He was a NC maker. Dr Whisker did a write-up (Sheets Gunsmiths of Ohio) on that family of Sheets in the Feb 1992 Ohio Longrifle Association. As well as I remember David Sheets moved his father Martin Sheets to Ohio circa 1812.
Dennis
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Offline Molly

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Re: Who was the maker ?
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2015, 12:08:15 AM »
Maybe the question of which "Shetz" made it can be answered by the nature of the documentation they are said to have.  And since there is a sage who has tuned in maybe he can add as to if that documentation is fact or fiction.

Offline Avlrc

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Re: Who was the maker ?
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2015, 01:45:32 AM »
Maybe the question of which "Shetz" made it can be answered by the nature of the documentation they are said to have.  And since there is a sage who has tuned in maybe he can add as to if that documentation is fact or fiction.

Was the "sage" thingy meant for me, if so, that is hilarious.  ;D.  I think in my first reply to your thread I was in agreement that  the rifle was made by John Sheets of Staunton, but maybe you missed that.  Go back and check I may be wrong, sure as heck would not be the first time.  But my other comment's was just giving other insights & conversation.  If I was a novice collector ( which Homerifle says I am) , I would sure like to know they are @ least 5 or 6  J Sheets gunsmith, so I might want to do my home work to get the rifle by the maker of my choice.

 It is one heck of a rifle and I would think  the best condition of any surviving  John Sheets rifles.  But who knows what the future may turn up.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 01:47:10 AM by Avlrc »

Offline Molly

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Re: Who was the maker ?
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2015, 02:28:13 AM »
Avirc:  EVERYONE is a sage when contrast to me....but actually I was more thinking of Dennis at that time.  I actually am nothing but a sage wannabe and I readily admit that and it does not embarrass me.  Just remember, you too were once young beautiful and ill informed...just like me!  And I appreciate every comment.  There are real questions to be answered and it's a great rifle for a discussion.  It's breath taking to see it.  Not totally because of the way it is made but also because of the condition and all the detail.  But I will be bold here and disagree with Don Stith.  I don't think Wallace Gusler made it!

BTW, when looking at it I did not notice the one screw missing on the rear of the trigger plate.  ("Plate"...is that what it's called).  But maybe that just stands that it is in the condition "as found" and not tampered with by the Foundation's "experts".


Offline Avlrc

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Re: Who was the maker ?
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2015, 03:05:37 AM »
"EVERYONE is a sage when contrast to me....but actually I was more thinking of Dennis at that time"

Oh, that makes more sense. :)
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 03:08:38 AM by Avlrc »

Offline homerifle

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Re: Who was the maker ?
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2015, 04:05:58 AM »
Anyone interested in studying this particular rifle should see, " Journal Of Historical Arms Making Technology " by, Wallace Gusler. If you can find one I highly recommend It!

Offline homerifle

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Re: Who was the maker ?
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2015, 04:09:03 AM »
Anyone interested in studying this particular rifle should see, " Journal Of Historical Arms Making Technology " by, Wallace Gusler. If you can find one I highly recommend It!
"Sorry Vol. 5"

Offline flinchrocket

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Re: Who was the maker ?
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2015, 07:18:34 PM »
I wonder if the purchase documents give the location of John Shetz shop.  On Clay Smith's website
he says its John Sheetz in Shepardstown,Va, pertaining to the copy he built. Then I have read it was
John Sheets from Staunton, Va. Makes me think we are talking about two different people? Phillip
Sheetz had 3 son's named John- John Phillip b. 1774, John Jacob b. 1785 and John Frederick b. 1790
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 07:28:45 PM by flinchrocket »

Offline Molly

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Re: Who was the maker ?
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2015, 07:41:24 PM »
I actually wonder if there are really documents as claimed.  But then I would think that the Foundation would properly research things given the access they have to experts and talent in the field.  A lot of items, most actually, are displayed with little or no indication of anything specific about the history or maker of the item.

Offline tallbear

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Re: Who was the maker ?
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2015, 07:50:45 PM »
From the JHAT article

John Sheetz appeared in the personal property tax records of Winchester Virginia April 30 1792 working in Simon Laucks gunshop.He disappeared from Simon Laucks tax list in 1796 and appeared in Staunton VA that same year.He continued to work there until he disappeared from the records in the ear;y 1820's.

Mitch

Offline flinchrocket

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Re: Who was the maker ?
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2015, 10:38:30 PM »
Thanks Mitch, perhaps John Phillip didn't get along with his father and went to Simon Lauck for his
apprenticeship. He would have been 21 in 1795, finished his apprenticeship and then moved to Staunton.
In Phillip's will he left his gunmakers tools to Martin and no mention of John Philip.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 10:53:18 PM by flinchrocket »

Offline Avlrc

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Re: Who was the maker ?
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2015, 11:18:41 PM »
Thanks Mitch, perhaps John Phillip didn't get along with his father and went to Simon Lauck for his
apprenticeship. He would have been 21 in 1795, finished his apprenticeship and then moved to Staunton.
In Phillip's will he left his gunmakers tools to Martin and no mention of John Philip.

The above is what  I was told by an old collector when I first started collecting. But awhile back I was exchanging email with someone on ancestry.com. that was a descendant of John Sheets of Staunton and they said they had DNA tested and they was not of the that line ( not related to Henry or Philip of Jefferson/Berkely County VA/WV). Seems then I looked all of the Sheetz up and they was correct, but been awhile.

Offline flinchrocket

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Re: Who was the maker ?
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2015, 12:16:09 AM »
Thanks Avirc, It was just a possibility I had thought about. Also, I really like the HCLR blog. Thanks for
your and homerifles hard work.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 12:17:20 AM by flinchrocket »

Offline Avlrc

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Re: Who was the maker ?
« Reply #40 on: November 14, 2015, 10:43:18 PM »
Thanks Avirc, It was just a possibility I had thought about. Also, I really like the HCLR blog. Thanks for
your and homerifles hard work.
Welcome.  But back to the Sheets, I need to go back sometime and check that all out again. Just have other interest right now.  They are a bunch of Henry Sheets gun-makers as well. One Henry is from Ohio. Then their is the Henry Sheets son of John ( or maybe his brother, heard that to). And the Henry Sheetz brother of Philip.  This Henry also had a son named Henry who was a gunsmith. Oh, who is the Henry sheets from Missouri?   So whats that 5, &  probably more.  A collector could  get the wrong H Sheets rifle  if he does not do his homework.  ???
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 02:50:13 AM by Avlrc »

Offline Avlrc

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Re: Who was the maker ?
« Reply #41 on: November 14, 2015, 11:14:35 PM »
I used to own a signed D (avid) Sheets rifle. He was a NC maker. Dr Whisker did a write-up (Sheets Gunsmiths of Ohio) on that family of Sheets in the Feb 1992 Ohio Longrifle Association. As well as I remember David Sheets moved his father Martin Sheets to Ohio circa 1812.
Dennis

I seen a gun a few years ago signed in script D Sheets, the gun was a smooth bore musket or fowler.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Who was the maker ?
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2015, 02:18:31 AM »
I think the one I had was signed in script. I just looked and I don't have a photo of the signature.
Dennis
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Offline FALout

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Re: Who was the maker ?
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2015, 01:04:46 AM »
Being no expert, I never would have guessed who the maker was.  A very well preserved example that great to see (even in pictures).  I like the rounded bevel at the top of the butt plate, is that a common feature from Sheetz?
Bob

Offline Molly

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Re: Who was the maker ?
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2015, 04:30:34 AM »
No expert here either!  And about as near as I would have gotten would have been a "Virginia made rifle".  As to the butt plate I don't know but I have three Sheets replicas by different makers and all have a similar feature.  Similar but not exactly.