B.P. Shotgun Shooting

[Squirrel pizza]

I have owned several shotguns. Mostly collector pieces I can't mention on this site. One old gun I've owned for twenty odd years is a 4 bore. The other is a B.P. Parker double 12 ga. Percussion. As a rifleman a rule of thumb that I learned for sighting in was start with 1 gr. of powder per caliber and adjust accordingly. My question is, is there a starting load per gauge? Besides the obvious of powder,card wad, shot,etc. Where do you start to work up a load for a shotgun? I understand you can't shoot the same load Nitro barrels will handle out of Damascus barrels. I'm sure ya'll can help. Thanks

[axelp]

For my 62 cal/20 g smoothbore flintlock, I use around 65-75 gr of FF. Seems to work pretty good for me. I use this powder charge for both shot and roundball.

I have shot heavier loads but so far, this gives me good patterns and accuracy.

My gun has a Longhammock oct to round barrel on it.

K

[Squirrel pizza]

Never having owned a smooth bore or fowler I may be wrong, but isn't there a significant difference in the thickness of barrels from a fowler to a shotgun? and the pressures they can stand?

[Mike Brooks]

Never having owned a smooth bore or fowler I may be wrong, but isn't there a significant difference in the thickness of barrels from a fowler to a shotgun? and the pressures they can stand?

It's the breech size you have to worry about. Doesn't matter how thin the muzzle is.
 I have found 60-70gr powder and 1oz shot loads plenty for 20 bores. Somewhere around 90-100 for 12 bores and 1 1/8- 1 3/8oz shot.

[L. Akers]

If your shotgun is in good order and safe to shoot, I would start with 2-1/2 drams of powder (27.34Gr/dram) and 1oz. of shot.  See how that patterns and then try another load.  A 12 ga will safely handle 3-1/4 Dr. of powder and 1-1/4 oz of shot.  The markings on a modern shotshell are black powder equivalents. Also you might try using half a cushion wad on top of the over powder wad instead of a full wad.  That sometimes helps the pattern.  V. M.Starr used to use two over powder wads and no cushion wad.  Just have to experiment to see what your gun wants.

[Squirrel pizza]

OK, This is probably a stupid question, but here goes. Rifle patches vary, (.10,.15,etc.) Do wad and card sizes vary per gauge, or is 12 ga. 12 ga. and 10 ga. 10 ga.  Not counting on owning your own cutters, but say I go to TOTW and order 12 ga. wads, are they all pretty much the same?

[L. Akers]

I am pretty sure the manufacturers of wads follow the SAAMI dimensions for the nominal size of the gauge.  If a 12 ga wad is loose try an 11 ga.  or a 13 if too tight,

[axelp]

My usual load is a 65 gr measure of FF, a cardboard wad, 100 gr measure of #5 shot and a split in half (more or less) cardboard wad.

I prime with FF. Or I have a FFFF priming horn and use it if I get a misfire, but thats not too common.
 
Sometimes I use green leaves for a wad and over the shot if I feel particularly close to mother earth that day.

Love shooting my fowler.

 

[Squirrel pizza]

I never have used a fowler or smooth bore. But I have been tempted to get a Brown Bess or Charlesville musket just to give it a try. Lets say I had a Brown Bess and loaded it like a shotgun. How different would that shoot as compaired to say a long barreled 10 ga. shotgun?

[Mike Brooks]

I never have used a fowler or smooth bore. But I have been tempted to get a Brown Bess or Charlesville musket just to give it a try. Lets say I had a Brown Bess and loaded it like a shotgun. How different would that shoot as compaired to say a long barreled 10 ga. shotgun?

"Generally" a Bess or a Charlleyville are poor choices for a wing shooting gun. Slow lock time is a real  killer with these. You need a flint lock gun that has a fast lock time.
 Patterns. If you're having pattern problems there are a few things you can do. Usually they'll want to blow a doughnut in the middle. Sometimes you can fix it by adding a little more shot. Or as was mentioned above remove the fiber wad. I always like to work up a load with a wad so the wad will carry lube down the bore....important for a good pattern. Lubbed felt wads instead of fiber wads usually cure a doughnut. Also a jug choke will straighten out your pattern. As little as .005 will fill in your pattern.

[Keb]

I've had good results using a couple 1/8" nitro cards that I've sucked on between shots for wadding in a 20 gauge. The damp cards do a pretty good job of wiping the barrel between shots when I reload. I've got one of M. Brooks type G guns that will reach out there and bust clays until the thrower gets tired. I use 90 ff and the same measure of a mix of 6 & 8 shot. Say what you may about that load but it works for me.

[Squirrel pizza]

This is good stuff fellas, thanks for the education. How does using half a wad help with the pattern your gun throws? Also, I really don't see myself dove shooting with a Brown Bess. I was thinking more on the lines of buck and ball, or pure buck shot for deer, hog, etc.

[axelp]

I get a decent pattern most times with a half a cardboard wad as the over shot...I have killed squirrel and pheasant and busted clays out pretty far with it-- one day I managed 6 of 6 clays and I hit them out pretty far as I was backup shooting for some modern shotgunners--when they missed, I would pick em up.

Mike's advice, using a lubed felt wad is something I need to try as my load is dry and fouling can be an issue after 8 or so shots. I usually blow down the bore when no one is looking to soften the fouling---I know, I know, stupid.

[HAWKEN]

On another BP forum, several shooters report good patterns using the a cushion wad as an over shot card.  Powder, OP wad, shot, then cushion wad.......robin 

[Daryl]

On another BP forum, several shooters report good patterns using the a cushion wad as an over shot card.  Powder, OP wad, shot, then cushion wad.......robin 

I cannot imagine how that would help patterns.  For non-choked guns, a  shot protector or concentrator like a post-it note wrapped around a wad,  glued shut, then filled with shot, then rammed down as a unit, with thin card over top has worked for some people. This would be for longer distance shooting (just as they were designed for this in the 1800's) as the wad needs to fall back from the shot cloud. Out to 25 yards, it may shoot as a slug.

In my 20 bore, I use 70gr. of powder, with a 75gr. measure filled with shot.  I use a hard card over the powder and a 1/2" lubed cushion wad over the OP wad, then the shot, then a thin card OS wad.  This patterns about Modified in my gun which is V-nice, but this gun has a slight choke - about IMP- CYL.

[Mike Brooks]

On another BP forum, several shooters report good patterns using the a cushion wad as an over shot card.  Powder, OP wad, shot, then cushion wad.......robin  

The other board people are keyboard commandos that rarely leave the house to shoot. They also wear tinfoil hats.......

[Mike Brooks]

On another BP forum, several shooters report good patterns using the a cushion wad as an over shot card.  Powder, OP wad, shot, then cushion wad.......robin 

I cannot imagine how that would help patterns.  For non-choked guns, a  shot protector or concentrator like a post-it note wrapped around a wad,  glued shut, then filled with shot, then rammed down as a unit, with thin card over top has worked for some people. This would be for longer distance shooting (just as they were designed for this in the 1800's) as the wad needs to fall back from the shot cloud. Out to 25 yards, it may shoot as a slug.

In my 20 bore, I use 70gr. of powder, with a 75gr. measure filled with shot.  I use a hard card over the powder and a 1/2" lubed cushion wad over the OP wad, then the shot, then a thin card OS wad.  This patterns about Modified in my gun which is V-nice, but this gun has a slight choke - about IMP- CYL.

That's pert near my old 20 bore recipe, only on that particular gun I could use a whole fiber wad. They are all different. The only recommendation I can make is to figure out some way to lube the bore. Most of my shooting was skeet so at least 25 loads had to be made with out pumping out the barrel.
  I ran into dough nut holes  with 14 , 12 and 10 bores....don't know why that is. More short barrels than long...don't know why that was either.

[jackley]

I have an original E Allen & Son 12 ga. Likes 1 1/4 oz. shot and that measure of 2f powder .  OP wad, fiber wad lubed with olive oil and bore butter, and os wad.  Shoots all day no fowling. Shoot trap and skeet with it.

A JC Grubb 16 ga. 1 oz. shot and that measure of 3f powder . Same wads as above but in 16 ga. also skeet and trap gun.  Shoots all day no fowling.

A Rod Gates 14 ga. flint that likes 1 oz. shot and that measure of 3f powder. over powder wad but this is rammed home with a damp patch on the jag then shot and os wad. Shoots all day.

 Have shot doubles with these guns on pheasant, sharptail, huns and chukkar.

 These 3 are dbl. bbls.

A 20 ga. fuzzee and I don't have it figured out yet.   

[Daryl]

On another BP forum, several shooters report good patterns using the a cushion wad as an over shot card.  Powder, OP wad, shot, then cushion wad.......robin  

I cannot imagine how that would help patterns.  For non-choked guns, a  shot protector or concentrator like a post-it note wrapped around a wad,  glued shut, then filled with shot, then rammed down as a unit, with thin card over top has worked for some people. This would be for longer distance shooting (just as they were designed for this in the 1800's) as the wad needs to fall back from the shot cloud. Out to 25 yards, it may shoot as a slug.

In my 20 bore, I use 70gr. of powder, with a 75gr. measure filled with shot.  I use a hard card over the powder and a 1/2" lubed cushion wad over the OP wad, then the shot, then a thin card OS wad.  This patterns about Modified in my gun which is V-nice, but this gun has a slight choke - about IMP- CYL.

That's pert near my old 20 bore recipe, only on that particular gun I could use a whole fiber wad. They are all different. The only recommendation I can make is to figure out some way to lube the bore. Most of my shooting was skeet so at least 25 loads had to be made with out pumping out the barrel.
  I ran into dough nut holes  with 14 , 12 and 10 bores....don't know why that is. More short barrels than long...don't know why that was either.

I think maybe there was some "Trolling" going on in those other sites.  Mike - one reason could be that shorter barrels will increase the muzzle-blast at the muzzle due to higher muzzle pressure. Higher pressure and blast, will drive that heavier wad, especially a lubed wad, through the shot cloud before it gets too far from the muzzle.

The wad is driven into the middle of the shot cloud, which literally gives it a hole in the middle.  This was displayed quite graphically by W.W. Greener with a "shadow graph" (early high speed picture) with a 12 bore cylinder, compared to choked gun, also a 12 bore.  With the choked gun, the wad was held back a split second, allowing the shot to outdistance it.

 In the picture of the choked shot, the heavy wad was trailing the most tardy pellets, the column actually a very tight mass of pellets, strung slightly horizontally, instead of radiating outwards as in the cylinder bore.  In that shot, the wad was being driven through the shot column, which was spreading radially and this in only 12 or so inches from the bore, it was already out about 2", while the choked shot was perhaps a 3/4"diameter pattern.

Some guys use only tin "B" (OS) wads over the powder, several of them making for a much lighter 'wad' than an 1/8" card + 1/2" Donnaconna standard wad, lubed or not. Some guys, when loading a muzzleloading shotgun, forego the overshot wad & simply use the cushion wad, which seems to work fine in choked guns, but not well in cylinder bore guns due to the donut patterning problem.

[Jerry V Lape]

To answer his question about a starting point for powder and shot I would note that many of the responses contained the answer but perhaps not clearly enough for someone new to blackpowder shotgunning.  Start with a load of shot appropriate to the bore size.  In a 20ga that would be 7/8oz.  With a measure set to throw the 7/8oz of shot dip that same measure full in FFg powder.  Powder then over powder wad, cushion wad, shot and finally an overshot card.  If that doesn't give you a decent pattern then start tinkering with your cushion wad and lube.  for 12ga a 1 1/8oz load of shot.  Some falsely believe they need to put more shot than these loads in the respective bores but mostly they are reducing velocity and upping blown patterns.  I have used 1oz loads in a 10ga and found the load to be absolutely devastating on trap targets from way back in the handicap lines.  Have to start talking about short shot strings versus long ones to begin to understand what is going on with these light loads.  Without some choke you are not going to be using effective patterns much past 30 -35 yds.   

[Squirrel pizza]

Thank you Jerry. I know folks are trying to help but sometimes seem to stray from the main question. Which was a safe starting point. It's hard to tell what is good advice or not until I actually get to try some of it. I did learn that after the powder goes in I need an "over the powder card then a cushion padded wad then shot then another wad but not to big or I'll have donut holes". As to a Brown Bess or similar firearm, I'm sure if you're within range for accuracy, a .72cal ball will knock the life out of most critters. What about using it with buckshot? What kind of load could be used as to not cause over pressure on the gun?

[Mike Brooks]

Load your buckshot just like a shot load. Pressures will be the same if you're shooting the same weight of projectiles. BTW, I never had much luck with a good pattern  using buckshot out of a cylinder bore. Never tried it with a jug choke though, probably works lots better.

[Mike Brooks]

All guns shoot differently and want a particular diet. I had a original double flint gun in 18 bore with 32" cylinder bored damascus barrels that had chambered breeches. That gun would shoot about anything and not blow the pattern. My skeet load was 5/8 oz shot, equal volume of 3ff, hard card over the powder followed by either a lubed fiber wad or 3/8" felt topped of with an overshot card. That load turned skeets into dust. I used 1 oz loads in it once for pheasants, got a double with it. It would smack a bird DEAD. I actually cut back the load to 7/8 oz for hunting after taking the barrels apart to repair a lifting top rib. Those barrels were mighty thin at the breech...even spooked me and I don't spook easy.

[Mike Brooks]

Some guys use only tin "B" (OS) wads over the powder, several of them making for a much lighter 'wad' than an 1/8" card + 1/2" Donnaconna standard wad, lubed or not. Some guys, when loading a muzzleloading shotgun, forego the overshot wad & simply use the cushion wad, which seems to work fine in choked guns, but not well in cylinder bore guns due to the donut patterning problem.

I think I went to high school with Donna Conna........

[Squirrel pizza]

I don't own a fowler or a musket. Was trying to see if there was a practical use, (let me rephrase), If someone or twenty of you would say "It's the best thing since slicer bread", They hold an eight inch pattern at 75 yards", and "make me" have to get one. Or two. I do want to shoot the old Parker. I'll try out some of my freshly gleened knowledge and hopefully still have hands and things and report back. Which was my primary goal, not blowing up myself or the gun.