Author Topic: Hawken stuff  (Read 84355 times)

Offline Joe S.

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #100 on: January 24, 2016, 03:37:50 AM »
Thanks Taylor,this kind of information is a big help to first time builders.I really appreciate you sharing all of this with us.

Offline PPatch

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #101 on: January 24, 2016, 03:46:18 AM »
Beautifully accomplished. Loving this thread Taylor.

dave
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #102 on: January 24, 2016, 03:48:46 AM »
Thanks guys.
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Keb

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #103 on: January 24, 2016, 06:09:37 AM »
Awesome

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #104 on: January 24, 2016, 08:08:56 AM »
Now you got me wanting to try a Hawken.
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #105 on: January 24, 2016, 08:28:42 PM »
My goal here is to encourage folks to strive for nuances that set Hawken rifles apart from others.  This requires personal commitment to study - looking past the forest to see the trees.  I understand that without experience and practice, the new builder can easily stray and become overwhelmed.  As we speak (write) I have a local friend who is beginning his own Hawken build, and although he has enviable skill with hand tools and is a master carpenter in his own rite, he needs and wants guidance to pull this off to his satisfaction.  I am so happy that you all are finding this useful.  And I can tell you; every build gets me closer to 'the mark' than the previous.  We never stop learning.  And having made the effort, it only makes you appreciate more the skill of the men working in the Hawken shop.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Joe S.

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #106 on: January 24, 2016, 09:06:14 PM »
And it's folks like yourself and others here willing to go that extra mile by helping the rest of us on that journey.You inspire,blaze the trail and set the bar so we can all be the better for it.Well done sir!

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #107 on: January 25, 2016, 05:32:36 AM »
Taylor, this question is a little off topic, but not completely. Were Hawkens ever made with single triggers?
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Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #108 on: January 25, 2016, 06:38:30 PM »
Not Taylor but the answer is yes - Don Stith's J & S Fullstock has a single trigger.
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #109 on: January 25, 2016, 10:55:27 PM »
Thanks for answering Chuck.  When Don posted his pictures of that great rifle, I jealously saved them for reference.  If you're building a full stocked Hawken, that is a fine one to use for inspiration.

Yesterday afternoon, rather than go shooting, I started inletting the entry pipe for the half stocked percussion rifle.  This is a long tedious process that requires for me at least, full concentration and patience.  The pipe is a casting from TOW, and I like it for a couple of reasons.  It has a 7/16" hole, a filed raised ring at both ends, and is almost square in relation to the lug and tail.  It is about half again as thick as a sheet metal pipe, so requires more wood to be removed, but the outcome can be nice.  I started by filing and then polishing to 120 grit.

I started by shaping up the forestock leaving quite a bit of extra wood for later removal.  Laying the pipe alongside the stock, I marked the angle parallel to the bottom of the nose piece, and using a Japanese dozuki cut out that piece of wood.  Then it's chisels and knifes to get the pipe down into the wood, keeping a centre line along the bottom of the forestock, and all things square with the world.















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Incidentally, you'll notice the barrel key ... it's entering from the lock side.  I always do them opposite to that - enter from the off side.  It's presently like that simply to hold the wood to the barrel.  I'll change it later.
Having inlet the pipe, now I go at the stock again with rasps, files, scrapers, and 80 grit to finish shaping the forestock, right back to and including the lock panels on both sides.  It's now time to finish and inlet the key escutcheons...

« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 10:08:12 PM by D. Taylor Sapergia »
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Online smylee grouch

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #110 on: January 26, 2016, 04:54:32 AM »
Taylor, I feel silly for asking but what is that behind the rib on the bottom flat?  I must have missed that lesson.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #111 on: January 26, 2016, 05:19:05 AM »
That's called a "nose piece/cap"  It is a casting from MBS.  Does there need to be a chapter on it....I have pics from a very similar build?
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Online smylee grouch

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #112 on: January 26, 2016, 05:56:12 AM »
Yikes- I was looking at the photo from straight below or looking down on it and it looked like a short section of rib with one rivot. Told ya I'd feel silly.  ;D

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #113 on: January 26, 2016, 07:26:16 AM »
Chuck, thanks for the answer to my question.  ;D
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Offline Curtis

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #114 on: January 26, 2016, 07:07:13 PM »
That's called a "nose piece/cap"  It is a casting from MBS.  Does there need to be a chapter on it....I have pics from a very similar build?

I've installed similar nose caps myself, however I would be very curios to see your method of doing it Taylor,  as often my self taught methods can be improved upon!

Curtis
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #115 on: January 26, 2016, 08:50:25 PM »
This is regressing just a bit to include the inletting of the nose piece/cap, which is done prior to inletting the entry pipe.  Tom Curran and David Rase have both done great tutorials on this subject, but it would be good for continuum to have it here too.

This nose piece is a casting from Muzzleloader Builder's Supply, as recommended by Herb...a nice product.  But for this application there was work to do before it could be used.  It is for a 1 1/8" barrel, and I suspect, a solid steel under-rib.  The tapered barrel on this build is about 1 1/16" at the end of the forestock, so the cap needed to be reduced to fit the barrel.  I simply squeezed and hammered it to fit.  Secondly, the rib I used is a hollow rib and is a bit deeper than the solid machined ones, so I had metal added via wire feed welder along the inside of the octagon.  Then I filed it to fit the barrel.  I know of no one who makes a Hawken nose piece for a 1 1/16" barrel, unfortunately.  For my own Hawken build which I did several years ago now, I just made a two piece nose cap which was common on originals. 

Since I use the ramrod pipes on the under-rib to drill the rod hole, the rib is permanently attached to the barrel.  To fit the nose cap, I just turned the barrel upsidedown in the channel and inlet the nose piece as if the rib were not there.  The first step in inletting is to mark the rearward most edge of the cap, and make a shallow cut with a fine tooth sharp saw.  I use a dozuki from Lee Valley tools.






Now cut the vertical lines abut 1/16" deep ...




Begin by paring away the wood up to your saw cuts.  In this pic and the last, you can see the barrel is upsidedown in the channel - the rib on the top.





By using transfer pigment (Jarrow's inletting black, lipstick, Prussian blue oil paint) and sliding the cap rearward along the barrel, you can see where the wood is interfering with the cap and just carefully chisel it away, little by little until the cap goes all the way to the saw cut.  You must not take away any more wood than is only required for the cap to slide back to it's final position...it needs all the support it can get, as this wood is quite thin here.  Also, the cap must be all the way to the back with a nice wood to metal fit against the tip of the forestock, at the same time contacting the end of the stock with the inside end of the cap.  And with only just a tiny clearance for the rib when the barrel in dropped down into the channel.  Careful planning and patience....



The cap is secured to the stock in this case with a #8 x 32 tpi machine screw with a countersink head, from the inside of the barrel channel.  I drilled a #29 hole through the centre of the rod groove, re-installed the cap on the stock, and continued the hole up through the wood into the barrel channel.  Then I drilled out the wood with a clearance drill bit, and cut a shallow countersink for the head of the machine screw, in the inside of the channel.  With the cap firmly in place, I tapped the nose piece from inside the channel, installed the screw, and dressed off both the extra that came through the cap, and the head inside the channel.  Make sure to maintain the slot in the screw, as you will want to be able to remove the cap for polishing etc.  I ground the set off both sides of a hack saw blade to use for cutting my screw slots...makes nice thin screw driver slots.




Now the barrel can be turned right side up and dropped into the channel.  There should be enough clearance between the rib and the nose piece that there is no interference between the two.  This is importance to the assembly of the rifle and to it's inherent accuracy.  Too loose is better here than too tight.





....and these final shots shows the relationship of all the components, with the entry rod pipe inlet.




« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 10:26:59 PM by D. Taylor Sapergia »
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #116 on: January 27, 2016, 04:16:57 AM »
Not Taylor but the answer is yes - Don Stith's J & S Fullstock has a single trigger.

I there is a single trigger 1/2 stock in "Firearms of the American West 1803-1866" and I know of another but can't think of what book its in. The original owner traveled from the east coast to get it IIRC. Might have been in MB or Buckskin report or even FoAW already cited. It was also pretty short in the barrel IIRC.

Dan
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #117 on: January 27, 2016, 03:04:36 PM »
Not Taylor but the answer is yes - Don Stith's J & S Fullstock has a single trigger.

I there is a single trigger 1/2 stock in "Firearms of the American West 1803-1866" and I know of another but can't think of what book its in. The original owner traveled from the east coast to get it IIRC. Might have been in MB or Buckskin report or even FoAW already cited. It was also pretty short in the barrel IIRC.

Dan

Don Stith said I made a single trigger for him years ago. I don't remember it but do remember a double set for Tom Dawson that had to be set for every shot and also had to be set to cock the lock.Tom said the Hawken he copied had that terrible feature as well.

Bob Roller

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #118 on: January 30, 2016, 11:44:41 PM »
I prefer to make my own escutcheon plates.  Then they fit the keys/slides perfectly, are a shape I can live with, and also fit the screws I have for attachment.  I use 1/16" thick steel sheet for these, and have a template that I use to begin the shaping process.  In this case, when I made my last Hawken rifle, knowing I had another soon after to build, I made all the plates for the two rifles at the same time, saving time later, and making a tedious job less so in the long run.

This is a picture heavy item, so I'll likely do it in a couple of installments.  I first started by cutting a strip of steel from the larger sheet with the band saw, and then cut the individual pieces to length from it.  A coating of lay-out blue ink allows one to trace a template and get them fairly uniform right off the get-go.  I clamped the template over each of the pieces and traced the outline and screw holes with a sharp scribe.  Here's some images to help explain this step.







In that last picture, you can see the commercial escutcheon I used for the template.  It has roughly the right shape, but the slot for the key is totally wrong.  I'll try to explain how I improved the shape of these escutcheons in due course.



Here, I have scribed a line through the centre line of the plates, simply bisecting the screw holes.



Having already filed and polished the keys to 180 grit, I laid the key across the plate and marked the width of the slot to be cut.  Then I centre punched three times along the centre line so that the outside holes will be within the margin for the key.  Using a drill bit that is a few thou less than the thickness of the key, I drilled all five holes in each plate.  I enlarged the screw holes as I got to that stage, and cut the countersink for the heads.  When I cut the countersink, I set the drill press quill stop so that i got perfectly uniform countersinks.  I amke the countersinks a little shallow of the screws's head so that there is metal to file away to bring them flush with the escutcheon pate at the finishing stage.







Although this picture is misleading, you'll see that all the holes in the support board are at the edge.  That's because I used a pair of vise-grip pliers to hold the plates for drilling.  If you elect to use just your fingers to secure the plate, you'll end up with shorter fingers by the time you get them all done.





To trim the extra metal away, I clamped one handle of a pair of metal shears in my vise, and easily cut away the waste steel.





Here, I am cutting away the metal between the holes with a jeweller's saw.  Careful to stay within the lines.  Also, the outside metal has been ground and filed away to leave the approximate finished shape of the escutcheon.



Must break for lunch...more to come.

OK:  I'll finish up this bit on escutcheon plates.  Once the webs between the holes is cut away with the jeweller's saw, the slot is finished with filed so that the keys slide through nicely.  Remember that the purpose of the escutcheon plates is simply to protect the wood around the key.  It is not to provide friction to hold the barrel in the stock...that job is performed by the wood to metal fit within the stock itself.  Reproduction efforts by Italian, Spanish, and American manufacturers miss this point, and their plates do all the work.





The second to last job before inletting these escutcheon plates, is to file the 'draft' onto the edges.  I coat the edges of the plates with a felt pen, clamp it in the vise and file a gentle angle, removing just the black ink, and without disturbing the shape of the plates.  All inlays are treated in this manner, so that as you remove wood from the edges of the inlet to drop the inlay into its mortise, the inlay becomes tighter and tighter, eliminating any spots where you may have removed too much wood...that's the theory anyway.  This filing is best done while the plates are flat...easier to hold in the vise that way.



The surface of the stock where these inlays will go is not flat...it has a subtle convex curve.  Many builders miss this point and create a forestock that is referred to as "slab sided".  Wood must be removed from the stock to within almost a knife edge at the barrel channel - not much more than 1/16" of a flat.  To shape the curve into the escutcheon plates I use a four inch length of three inch diameter steel rod, which approximates the curvature of the stock, and a little plate if 1/4" thick steel I bent around this bar to duplicate that curve.  I simply place the escutcheon plate on the big bar, countersinks up, place the 1/4" thick sheet over it, and strike it once with a hammer.  The plate instantly takes on the curve of the bar.  A tiny bit of filing may be required in the slots so that the key will pass, as curving the plate, even this small amount, will close the slot on the inside of the curve.  Now the plates are ready for inletting into the stock.



To begin inletting, install the key through a plate and slip it into the forestock.  The barrel should be in the stock during this process so the key is doing it's work.  Trace around the escutcheon plate with a sharp pencil, then remove the key and plate and with a variety of chisels and knives, inlet the plate.  I use two different sweeps, a 1/4" gouge, and a 1/8" flat chisel for this work, as well as a short bladed 'chip' knife with a good thin point.  I find Exacto blades to be too flexible, but the shape of a # 11 is right.









I inlet the plate until it is almost flush with the surface of the stock, leaving just a bit to file off flush with the surface when the screws have been installed.  In this shot, you can see the countersink holes have been centre punched for the drilling of the screw holes.



This image shows the screws run in...sometimes the heads of these little screws are not perfectly formed.  To make them perfectly formed and to ensure that the slots are deep enough to accommodate the filing or dressing down to the wood, I often swage the screw's heads in a plate that I have prepared by drilling a clearance hole and countersink, inserting a screw and hammering it into the countersink.  Then I recut the slot with a hack saw blade from which I have removed the set on both sides.  This image is a little out of focus, unfortunately.  My apologies.





I usually inlet both the plates for a Hawken rifle on one side before I flip the rifle over, and do the other side.  the other side is done exactly the same way I did these:  slide the key through the plate, slip it into the stock, trace, inlet, screw it down, dress it off.





There - another job done.  Now, the toe plate...


« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 11:30:38 PM by D. Taylor Sapergia »
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Offline Bill Ladd

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #119 on: January 31, 2016, 10:18:06 PM »
Awesome.

Offline Joe S.

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #120 on: January 31, 2016, 11:26:34 PM »
your inletts are superb, nice work.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #121 on: February 05, 2016, 02:49:13 AM »
It occurred to me that it might be useful to show the chisels I use for inletting these oval escutcheon plates.  They consist of a thin flat chisel about 7/64" wide with a rounded cutting edge, a Phiel sweep a little over 5/16" wide, a 1/4" Swiss made gouge, and a Phiel chip knife.  All these tools get stoned and polished smooth and sharp.








The prick punch I made from a dental 'scaling' tool.  I heated the point red, straightened it , and ground a sharp point.  It is good for scribing an outline through layout ink on metal, and for marking a screw hole.  The 1/16" pilot drill follows this piercing well.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 11:37:52 PM by D. Taylor Sapergia »
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #122 on: February 05, 2016, 02:55:48 AM »
The toe plate:

I first cut two strips from a sheet of .064" thick steel to length and mark the centre lines.  the pattern for the forward tip is included in this image.




Once the pattern has been traced and cut on the plates, I filed draft into the decorative tip.  The plate on the left has been filed, while the other awaits this step.  Notice the felt pen marking...once this is filed off, it is done.  I've put them together for the photo to show the steps.  The two holes for attachment screws are drilled at this time.  I used # 6 x 3/4" countersink screws.  The countersink in the plate is done later...for now, just the clearance holes for the screws.



Using the holes to mark the location of the screws, I located the position of the plate.  I have already ground the tail end of the plate at an angle that I hope will be close to the angle of the plate and the butt plate's toe.  I do this on the belt grinder, and tune it with a fine file as needed when fitting.  The centre of the circles that indicate the locations is pricked with the dental tool punch described above.  Then the holes are drilled with a portable electric drill and a 1/16" bit.  Choose a bit that is appropriate for the screws you are using.





Screw the plate down to the wood.  I put the screws in the vise and with a hack saw blade from which both sides of the set have been ground off, I cut the slots a little deeper.  This ensures that when I dress off the oval heads flat, I don't remove all of the slot.  With the bottom line of the butt stock parallel to the bench, the toe plate should be located so that the butt end of the plate is directly above the very inside tip of the butt plate.  This is hard to describe.  If you locate the plate too far to the rear, you'll end up filing some off to get it to mate with the butt plate...too far forward, and you will have a gap, and have to continue removing wood to finally come to rest steel on steel.





Having traced around the decorative end, I drew a line on each side of the stock 1/16" below the surface.  I filed off the wood angling up to the centre from each side until I reached the lines, and then with chisels removed the remainder, finally inletting the forward end.  Once down and fitting nicely, I screwed it down hard once more  and checked for gaps and high spots.  When all was good, I countersunk the two holes being aware that only the domed top must remain above the plate's surface, and returned the plate and the screws to their positions.   I laid a straight edge on the stock and toe plate lining up the 1/8" border of the trigger plate and the tip of the butt plate, and drew a line marking the edge to which I must file.  Then I rasped off the screw heads and dressed the sides of the plates off to the wood.  I filed everything with a single cut mill bastard, ready now for polishing.







I see I have included a picture from the full stock build to show the inlet in the second to last picture... didn't have an image from the half stock build, but they are virtually the same, especially in context.

All of the inetting is now finished on both rifles.  I have to make a front sight for the half stocked rifle, and cut the dovetails for both the front and rear sights.  Then it's scrape, sand, polish, and finish.  I am pleased that some of your have found this "Hawken stuff" useful.  I'll happily try to answer any questions that you might have and encourage you to tackle a Hawken build yourself.  Inletting is inletting, but there are some idiosyncrasies with the Hawken that one must pay attention to, to get a credible recreation.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2022, 03:33:46 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #123 on: February 05, 2016, 09:01:49 PM »
Well presented, Taylor - as usual. :)
Daryl

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Offline Wolfeknives

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Re: Hawken stuff
« Reply #124 on: February 06, 2016, 09:02:20 AM »
Taylor, it has been a great pleasure watching the progress on the rifle. I am very much looking forward to taking it out for the first time. It will always be special to me.

Wolfe