Historically Correct Flintlocks

[okieboy]

 I am not generally a load vocal member of the Historically Correct Police, but there have been topics on the Board lately to the effect, "C an I bolt a Flintlock onto a fill-in-the-blank."
 Could someone knowledgeable document for me some of these late (1850-1870) flintlock plains rifles, Hawkens, Dimicks, Lemans, Vincents, et cetera that were originally built as half stocks AND were originally built with flintlocks?
 I am not asking about New England rifles or the 1803 Harper's Ferry, these were not late. I am not asking about English rifles as by definition these are not American Long Rifles. Full stocks with broken off fore stocks that have been trimmed in order to salvage them also don't count, they weren't originally built as half stocks.
 I am asking about these late half stock flintlocks that I keep hearing about. Maybe someone can show one, but I think they are an oddity at best.
 Any builder can build any thing they want, who can stop them, but that doesn't make it good craft.

[Mike Brooks]

Where are you hearing about these 1/2 stock flint guns? They weren't common.

[rich pierce]

Agree, guess the biggest passion is for Hawken flintlocks. Whether any were made in half stock is unknown.

[WadePatton]

who wants a half-stock anyways?   

[exit Bevis]

[stuart cee dub]

This goes back possible to the ''Henry Rifle Drawing'' a thread earlier today .I 've seen this topic come up before on a fantasy Vincent flint too.

Frankly I can't recall any flint only halfstocks built in America Okieboy
English ...sure no problem,but you knew that .

There was a photo I saw some years ago of an interchangable percussion gun /flintlock built I believe for the Governor of  Arkansas? I think in one of James Whiskers books.There was a compartment in the stock that held the second lock .Looked like it had never been used in the photo .

I'm sure the more knowledgable will chime in.

I would be happy to see a indisputable Hawken flintlock fullstock beside the Smithsonian one which may (or may not) have been intended as a flint from the start .Maybe it was a recycled lock . But no halfstock there either.

[flinchrocket]

What about the Jacob Kuntz halfstock flint, isn't it an original flint halfstock?

[galudwig]

A discussion topic here about Ohio Rifles just over a year ago...

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=33177.0

The general agreement was that they weren't all that common.  There is a nice example of a James Teafe rifle in there though.

[Joe S.]

Captchee posted a site with a original half stock flinter,from Texas?but had Pennsylvania roots?this was just posted a couple days ago.Rifle was built by Gustavus Erickson

[smylee grouch]

James Johnstons books "Accouterments" and Shumways book on his magazine articles in Muzzle Blasts both show original half stock flints, one the already mentioned Kunz rifle and one by Willey Higgens(sp). Were they common, probably not but they were made.

[54ball]

 I would call that a longrifle. It's halfstock but still a longrifle.

[JCurtiss]

Here's a half-stock rifle that I believe started it's life as a flintlock long rifle.  If anyone can match the patch box design with a particular school or even gun maker, please let me know.

[Mark Elliott]

I have seen a couple of original flint half stocks.   Both were southern and very ornate.   I would consider them exceedingly rare and unusual.   A percussion half stock would be the norm.   

[little joe]

who wants a half-stock anyways?   

[exit Bevis]

Got the wood a nice bbl and lock and love flintlocks. I did think about a cap lock and the more I thought about it the worse I felt. Went and puked in the cat litter box, forgot about the cap lock and now feel fine. We say not common but if some one does not build a half stock flinter every now and then are we  representing our muzzleloading heritage correctly. Smylee, that's a good post.

[Bob Roller]

who wants a half-stock anyways?   

[exit Bevis]

Got the wood a nice bbl and lock and love flintlocks. I did think about a cap lock and the more I thought about it the worse I felt. Went and puked in the cat litter box, forgot about the cap lock and now feel fine. We say not common but if some one does not build a half stock flinter every now and then are we  representing our muzzleloading heritage correctly. Smylee, that's a good post.

WHO wants a half stock anyways?? Most,if not all the BEST British makers did and made them.They used locks that gave center fire ignition and of a quality not seen today.A little history goes a long way and I HAVE A HALF STOCK FLINTLOCK under construction but with no date set for finishing it.

Bob Roller

[Old Ford2]

Good morning,
In answer to your question, Henry Leman made 1/2 stock flint rifles right  up to the 1860's ( perhaps later ) He made thousands of guns destined for the expansion of the western frontier ( USA )
Many of his orders were for hundreds of guns at one time and request was for one third of them to be flint lock and half stock.
Google Henry Leman and you will be amazed at his prolific gun making. At his peek he employed sixty people, or more.
He makes the Hawken boys look amateur in the gun making business. And he definitely made plains flint 1/2 stock plains rifles.
Fred

[okieboy]

 Dear Old Ford2, respectfully, this is the second time that someone has informed me of the "thousands of half stock flintlocks that H. Leman built without providing any documentation.
 I am not totally unfamiliar with Henry Leman and the products of his factory, in fact it has been an area of special study for me for a couple of years.
 The Ewing Brother's order of 1849 for 100 rifles was for "one-half flint and one-half percussion", but doesn't ask for any with half stocks.
 I am fortunate to know about a recently found case of Leman rifles that was never shipped West. Half were flint, half were percussion and all were full stock.
 If you can provide a photo of one of these originally half stock flintlock Henry Leman rifles, or a photocopy of an order to Leman specifying half stock flintlocks, I would be very interested. 

[JCKelly]

Since HST was listening to Margaret's piano I have been rather fond of two half-stock flint lock rifles in Dillin. Specifically Plates 7 and 8, rifles 1 (C.T. Stahl) and 2 (I.G. Wren), The Kentucky Rifle, Capt. John G.W. Dillin,  1924.

I grew up admiring Great-grandfather Kelly's rather well-inlayed half stock percussion, so these rather heavily inlayed flintlocks look pretty good to me.

Has anything else been written on these two rifles?

[Old Ford2]

Hello Okieboy,
I sent you an email with information on Henry Leman and his guns.
Best regards!
Fred

[Mike Brooks]

Since HST was listening to Margaret's piano I have been rather fond of two half-stock flint lock rifles in Dillin. Specifically Plates 7 and 8, rifles 1 (C.T. Stahl) and 2 (I.G. Wren), The Kentucky Rifle, Capt. John G.W. Dillin,  1924.

I grew up admiring Great-grandfather Kelly's rather well-inlayed half stock percussion, so these rather heavily inlayed flintlocks look pretty good to me.

Has anything else been written on these two rifles?

You must be very carefull with Dillin's work. Alot of water under the bridge since 1924.

[Gaeckle]

Harpers Ferry Rifle......

1/2 stock flint

[Dphariss]

People REALLY need to look at the history of the percussion cap.
It was not really finalized until well into what some think of as the "percussion" era long after 1816 and in the 1840s people were still being advised to take a FL west since the percussion was not trustworthy. Possibly why the Military hung on to it so long. Just because we don't see large numbers of 1/2 stock FLs is not sign they were not made. Many rifles had their stocks broken and were restocked often relocked at the same time.
People who want more info should read "Firearms of the American West 1806-1866" specifically Part II "Trappers and Traders" "Rifles".
A great many people like to think that the FL died immediately when the percussion cap came along. But it did not. In rifles it even hung on in England after the percussion system had swept way the FL in fowling pieces.
Then we have the fact that all percussion Hawkens use the "modern" percussion system. Not any of the various lead up versions. Remember the first percussion caps were reloadable steel. The one we use was unknown until the lat 1820s and was considered unreliable compared to the FL according to some period accounts. I cannot really see a lot of difference in reliability either. A GOOD FL is very reliable. I also suspect that the early percussion rifles may have been less accurate due to over charged or variable caps. So while there are not many SURVIVING 1/2 stock FL American rifles there surely were some made west of Philadelphia and many east of there. Frankly I don't know why people get their panties in the wad over things like this. Its entirely possible that a half dozen FL   J & S Hawkens went into the WW-I scrap drives. If someone came into The Hawken Shop (for example) in 1850 and wanted a FL Sam would make it for them 1/2 stock or otherwise.
There is after all an S Hawken from about 1850 and while its a FS it was flint when made.

Dan

[okieboy]

 Dear Graeckle, please read the original post. The 1803 Harper's Ferry is noted. It is not (1803) a late rifle.

[okieboy]

Dear Dphariss, I am not sure you understand what I am getting at.
 I am not saying the flintlock died over night. I am saying that it is odd for people to put a flintlock onto a late half stock percussion design, the same way it would be odd to put a late Vincent butt-plate and trigger guard onto an early Moravian design. They don't historically appear to belong together.
 I also do not understand how speculation that "they didn't survive" and "that it seems only reasonable that some people would have stuck with flint because they trusted it" is historical evidence that they existed beyond a very few examples.
 I believe that there are a very few original late half stocks built as flintlocks. I do not believe that there were thousands of these built by H. Leman and would be surprised if even one half stock Leman flinter could be documented much less a Hawken.
 No body is forced to build historically correct pieces, and technically most new builds compromise historical accuracy one way or another, such as the tall sights that are the norm now. However each of us draws a compromise line, for instance few on this board would build their next Bedford with a stainless steel barrel in spite of all its good properties. The compromise that has an adverse effect on my panties is putting flintlocks on half stock Hawkens and Lemans because we like flintlocks so  much.

[Gaeckle]

Dear Graeckle, please read the original post. The 1803 Harper's Ferry is noted. It is not (1803) a late rifle.

Sorry Ogerboy, didn't pick it up in you initial post......strike that one out.

[WadePatton]

Looks like flinter to me, in full wood.  But the most interesting thing I find is the date: 1910

from Contemporary Makers' Blog:  Sam Birchfield, NC