Author Topic: Mule Ear over under rifle in old CDV image  (Read 6535 times)

Offline Frank Graves

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Mule Ear over under rifle in old CDV image
« on: January 04, 2016, 03:37:41 AM »
I also collect armed images.  I have this CDV of a guy with an over under Mule Ear percussion rifle that he seems particularly proud of.  Photographer’s mark: “L. E. Stearns, Photo  Honesdale Penn” at the bottom and it reportedly came from a Honesdale, PA estate.  The rifle appears to be a fairly good quality rifle with a tang sight and a somewhat fancy patchbox. 

I am hoping that someone might be able to identify the maker of the rifle.  A long shot, I know.

Thanks for any ideas.

Frank Graves






Offline JCKelly

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Re: Mule Ear over under rifle in old CDV image
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2016, 04:03:01 AM »
Long Shot - such rifles were made in New York State, and in Michigan (about 1/3 of Mich gunsmiths came from NY).

Map says Honesdale is 10 -12 miles from the NY border.
I would say most likely New York.

I happen not to be well versed in over/unders made in Pennsylvania.

Offline nord

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Re: Mule Ear over under rifle in old CDV image
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2016, 03:38:50 PM »
As noted above this rifle fairly screams what we refer to as a NY gun. The thing is that the stock fits more in what we'd expect from west of Syracuse out into Ohio, though usually the perch belly would be somewhat more pronounced if from that part of the state.

Furniture and general design say a late gun. Somewhere around 1860 and perhaps even later. Honesdale is located in the Poconos and removed from the Catskills only by the Delaware river. Still rough country in 1860 with plenty of big game. Bears were abundant then and are today. Gentlemen hunters would often carry a weapon such as this.

My guess? I suspect not constructed by the hands of just one man. More likely a piece sold out of a sporting retailer in New York City. This type of rifle found its way north along the Hudson and west into the Catskills with some frequency. Usually the owner was a man of some means and he would have been very proud of the piece. I'd more expect any stamping to identify the retailer versus a maker.
In Memory of Lt. Catherine Hauptman Miller 6/1/21 - 10/1/00 & Capt. Raymond A. Miller 12/26/13 - 5/15/03...  They served proudly.

Offline Steve Collward

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Re: Mule Ear over under rifle in old CDV image
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2016, 04:54:01 PM »
Frank:   Great photo. Thanks for sharing. So often the CDV's and tintypes of the 19th century show soldiers posed with military muskets. Photos with rifles seem to be a bit more scarce.
It is possible that this gun was made in Pennsylvania. Honesdale is in Wayne County, Pa., about 30 miles north east of Scranton. Samuel States was a 19th century gunmaker in the Scranton area (Lackawanna Co).  
In his early years, gunmaker Jacob Harder was located around the N.Y., Pa. border. In his later years he settled in Lock Haven, Pa. I've seen several Harder/Lock Haven marked over/under guns of this style.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 04:54:40 PM by Steve Collward »

Offline nord

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Re: Mule Ear over under rifle in old CDV image
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2016, 05:32:00 PM »
I'm VERY familiar with Harder... Owego, NY, Athens, PA, Waverly, NY,  then Lock Haven, PA. My nephew owns two Harders. Both have the semi-perch belly but neither is similar enough to the gun we see in the OP for me to even remotely connect Harder with this rifle. It would appear that Harders could be expected to have a less elaborate trigger guard and a fair smattering of inlays while this gun does not. Harder did, however, use commercially available furniture and upgraded it with attractive engraving. All of which combined to make for a rather unattractive (in my opinion) but expensive gun. For the record both Harders were combination rifle and smooth bore guns.

As to being a PA rifle, I think probably not. (I said "probably" as by the time this rifle was manufactured much of what was once local influence was being lost.) Years ago we had almost the same conversation about another similar rifle which turned up in the Adirondacks. Speculation was that it was a Mohawk Valley gun made somewhere between Albany and Rome. It turned out to be a commercial (trade) gun sold by a sporting goods establishment in NY City. This is not to imply a cheap gun as it was anything but. I believe it was eventually determined to have been somewhat of a kit gun using British components and finished in what we might think of as the store's custom shop.
In Memory of Lt. Catherine Hauptman Miller 6/1/21 - 10/1/00 & Capt. Raymond A. Miller 12/26/13 - 5/15/03...  They served proudly.

Offline OLUT

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Re: Mule Ear over under rifle in old CDV image
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2016, 09:19:26 PM »
As a collector of percussion over/under guns for 55+ years, here's my reading ( note that I am a collector and NOT an expert).
                                   It was made by H. V. Perry
* Note the somewhat banana- shaped lockplate typical of SOME Western NY guns as well as the somewhat perchbelly stock profile
* It has only one ramrod and DOES NOT have ramrod pipes on the "lock side" of the barrels
* Although detail is difficult to see, the toilet seat patchbox is a bit distinctive, and the gun has a typical NYS lollypop tang-mounted sight, with no rear sight on the barrel
    If somebody with more talent than I could post the photo on Volume 3, page 1270 of Swinney's books you will see an almost identical gun by H V PERRY.
     Having many Harder guns and seeing many more over the years, the CDV image is NOT of a Harder built gun
How a gun from Western NY got all the way southeast to the Pocano Mountains of Pa. is a question that I will not try to answer............ Again, this is just my opinion and the experts are free to disagree with me


Offline Bill Paton

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Re: Mule Ear over under rifle in old CDV image
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2016, 09:47:35 PM »
OLUT is my go-to man for percussion o/u rifle info. I think he just proved my point.

Bill Paton
Kentucky double rifle student
wapaton.sr@gmail.com

Offline Frank Graves

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Re: Mule Ear over under rifle in old CDV image
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2016, 12:31:29 AM »
Many thanks to OLUT for figuring this out.  With advanced apologies to my friend Tom Rowe, following is the page 1270 that clearly shows the match between the rifle pictured in my image and the one in his NY State Firearms Trade books.  The rather unique patchbox and what I presume to be a "takedown" pin seems to have put any argument to rest.  Maybe it is the exact same rifle - who knows.

Images of rifles or pistols are much more common in images of soldiers.  I am very fortunate to find the maker of the rifle that is in my image.





Thanks again for everyone's attention.

Frank Graves

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Mule Ear over under rifle in old CDV image
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2016, 01:44:01 AM »
Very cool.  Now tell us why there is a cat and rooster in the picture?
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline Frank Graves

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Re: Mule Ear over under rifle in old CDV image
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2016, 01:57:19 AM »
Looking with a loupe it appears that the bird is a crow and the cat looking thing is more like a ferret with a long thin body.  So, could our subject then be a taxidermist?

I have seen some strange things in some of these old images, but these additions are a little on the extreme side.

Offline nord

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Re: Mule Ear over under rifle in old CDV image
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2016, 02:12:53 AM »
Try woodcock and weasel or mink.
In Memory of Lt. Catherine Hauptman Miller 6/1/21 - 10/1/00 & Capt. Raymond A. Miller 12/26/13 - 5/15/03...  They served proudly.

Offline Bill Paton

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Re: Mule Ear over under rifle in old CDV image
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2016, 03:45:25 AM »
Woodcock and ermine (white phase winter weasel). Maybe there are this rich guy’s hunting trophies.

Bill Paton
Kentucky double rifle student
wapaton.sr@gmail.com

Offline Buck

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Re: Mule Ear over under rifle in old CDV image
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2016, 03:20:36 AM »
I thought it was a pigeon and a rat.
Buck