Author Topic: Starting mid-18th century English rifle (Updated photos) (Read 21350 times)

WaterFowl · « **Reply #25 on:** February 21, 2016, 03:15:57 PM »

Dave........Can't wait to see the finished rifle..and matching fowler...Oh Boy!
   There's a couple dozen guys here that are inspiring.
   Proud member of "The Smart Dog Fan Club"
   Thanks for posting Dave...

Time to get a new pup!

KLMoors · « **Reply #26 on:** February 21, 2016, 04:27:38 PM »

That's looking great Dave.

smart dog · « **Reply #27 on:** February 21, 2016, 04:51:10 PM »

Thanks for looking guys,
Waterfowl, I don't know what to say except thank you for the compliment. I hope I don't disappoint you folks. Hopefully, this beautiful piece of wood won't be wasted on me. I learned something very useful so far during this build that I would like to share. I've used hooked tang and breeches on a lot of guns over the years and always anchored them by tight inletting and the tang bolt. On this gun, I took a tip from a couple of original English guns that I inspected, and installed a small bolt that is hidden under the trigger guard and threaded into the bottom of the standing breech (tang). Along with the tang bolt, the little bolt holds the tang down tightly such that I can fit the hook to snap into it with a very firm fit without risking levering it up and out of its inlet. It really works well and allows the breech of the barrel to be very firmly held in the tang.

dave

Telgan · « **Reply #28 on:** February 21, 2016, 05:14:34 PM »

What a great idea. Really shows the benefit of close inspection of a lot of original pieces. I never would have thought of that on my own.

davec2 · « **Reply #29 on:** February 22, 2016, 12:10:36 AM »

David,

The rifle looks fantastic !!! Did you carve and cast the side plate ? It's really beautiful.

smylee grouch · « **Reply #30 on:** February 22, 2016, 12:33:22 AM »

What a great looking piece that is going to be. Dave, I think I have seen that bottom bolt up to the tang arrangement on a Purdey (sp) plan but can't remember if the head of the bolt just bottoms out in the wood or if there was some washer arrangement for the bolt to butt up against. Sounds like a great idea any way you do it.

smart dog · « **Reply #31 on:** February 22, 2016, 12:58:30 AM »

HI Dave,
Thanks for looking. I made the side plate by carving a hard green wax model and then casting it in fine silver using the Delft clay method. I then cleaned and sharpened up the detail using die sinkers chisels and my gravers. The design is my own but inspired by the side plate on a 1740s fowler by James Freeman Jr. The London silversmith on that gun was likely Jeremiah Ashley who was much sought after by the gun trade. I want to make a duplicate for the matching fowler and a scaled-down version for a horse pistol. My ultimate plan is to have a matched set that includes the rifle, fowler, horse pistol, and turn-off pistol, all in 20 gauge, with silver and steel hardware and decoration of similar motifs. Hopefully, I will live long enough to get it all done. I guess I can at least dream.

dave

James Rogers · « **Reply #32 on:** February 22, 2016, 02:15:42 AM »

Quote from: smart dog on February 21, 2016, 04:51:10 PM

Thanks for looking guys,
Waterfowl, I don't know what to say except thank you for the compliment. I hope I don't disappoint you folks. Hopefully, this beautiful piece of wood won't be wasted on me. I learned something very useful so far during this build that I would like to share. I've used hooked tang and breeches on a lot of guns over the years and always anchored them by tight inletting and the tang bolt. On this gun, I took a tip from a couple of original English guns that I inspected, and installed a small bolt that is hidden under the trigger guard and threaded into the bottom of the standing breech (tang). Along with the tang bolt, the little bolt holds the tang down tightly such that I can fit the hook to snap into it with a very firm fit without risking levering it up and out of its inlet. It really works well and allows the breech of the barrel to be very firmly held in the tang.

dave

Dave, This is interesting. Would you have a picture of that bottom bolt arrangement? I assume you are describing the same scenario as seen on wrist escutcheons. All the pieces I have or have seen had a cross pin going thru a small lug at the bottom of the standing breech.
I would of course also be interested in the particular makers whose work you found this system on and time period for my files.
James

smart dog · « **Reply #33 on:** February 22, 2016, 03:39:09 AM »

Hi James!
I don't have photos but I can tell you that one gun was a dueling pistol by James Innes of Edinburgh probably made around 1800. It was the very first dueling pistol I had the chance to really examine. It was half stocked with a heavy barrel. The other gun was a single barreled fowler converted to percussion. The barrel had Birmingham proofs but on top was engraved "London". Any makers name on the lock was obscured by corrosion. It was not a high-end piece but was well made and probably was made after 1813 because of the style of the proofs. My original mid-18th century fowler from Jim Kibler has the cross pin through the lug. Unfortunately the pin was removed and lost and the hole badly buggered by someone probably trying to remove the standing breech. I think a problem most of us encounter today is that very few of the commercially available hook breeches have the lug for the pin. The easier solution then is to insert the little screw from below. Take care James and thanks for looking.

dave

Ed Wenger · « **Reply #34 on:** February 22, 2016, 04:29:48 AM »

Looking good, Dave! I too, would be interested in seeing the bolt arraignment you described. I've always secured the standing breach with a cross pin as James described, silver soldering a lug to the bottom if need be. Bolt sounds interesting....

Ed

smart dog · « **Reply #35 on:** February 22, 2016, 04:18:16 PM »

Hi James and Ed,
I will take some pictures of the gun today showing the bolt and post them for you. James, it occurred to me that one common feature of both guns that had the bolt arrangement was they did not have side plates, just decorative screw cups. Consequently, the hole for the lateral pin would be exposed unless it did not go all the way through the stock. That might be why the makers chose a different method. On my original fowler, the pin is hidden behind the side plate. After reading your note, I looked at my copies of Neal and Back's books on British gun makers to see if that pin shows up on guns without solid side plates hiding it. I was especially interested in several guns by William Bailes on which he used wire inlay instead of a side plate. I did not spy any pin that would hold the standing breech on the bottom. Bailes must have used a different method on those guns or did not use any lower anchor. Again, I'll get some pictures posted for you soon.

dave

James Rogers · « **Reply #36 on:** February 22, 2016, 04:58:16 PM »

Thanks Dave!
My Heylin 1760's silver mounted gun's standing breech cross pin is hidden by the sideplate. My Elston gun which is a decade or so later has no sideplate, just nail washers and the pin is visible.

smart dog · « **Reply #37 on:** February 22, 2016, 08:40:51 PM »

Hi James and Ed,
Here are the photos I promised. The little bolt is installed under the guard and screws into the breech, holding down tightly. The forward lug for the guard fits neatly between the screw and trigger plate and the guard covers the screw hole.

dave

louieparker · « **Reply #38 on:** February 22, 2016, 08:56:19 PM »

You will find this screw used on some Hawken rifles.

Ed Wenger · « **Reply #39 on:** February 23, 2016, 02:40:00 PM »

Sweet! Thanks, Dave!

Ed

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #40 on:** February 23, 2016, 09:10:04 PM »

Louis: thanks for that comment! It certainly makes perfect sense.

On my Hawken pistol copy, I used a very highly figured piece of Claro walnut, and with the big .60 cal bore, I had issues with the stock cracking through the lock area. So I installed a screw like the one above through the trigger plate up into the standing breech, and have never had another issue. It completely removes any flex induced by recoil.

James Rogers · « **Reply #41 on:** February 23, 2016, 10:37:48 PM »

Thanks for the photos Dave. It will be interesting to see if a gun earlier than last quarter 18th reveals this arrangement. They were certainly using the same means to secure the thumbpieces with the exception of going thru the trigger plate.

smart dog · « **Reply #42 on:** April 09, 2016, 08:12:59 PM »

Hi,
I had to put my English rifle aside for most of last month to build a long rifle for a friend and client. Anyway, got back to it this week and inlet the sideplate. Whew! Glad that is done. I am almost ready to carve and decorate it.

I attached some photos of the long rifle too. I started it mid February. It is in the hands of the owner who is sanding and whiskering it. Then he will hand it back to me for carving and detailing. It will be a John Noll sort of thing.

dave

KLMoors · « **Reply #43 on:** April 09, 2016, 10:19:13 PM »

Dave, that side plate would give me some grey hairs! (That's assuming I had any hair, of course.) Looks like you are making some good progress. Looking forward to seeing more as you move along.

Thanks for the pics.

oldtravler61 · « **Reply #44 on:** April 10, 2016, 02:49:00 AM »

Dave always impressed with your workmanship. Yes I am one of your fans also. Will be following your build, all the way.

Ed Wenger · « **Reply #45 on:** April 10, 2016, 05:08:22 AM »

Hey Dave, both pieces are looking great! Do you remember what trigger guard you used for the Noll rifle?....

Ed

smart dog · « **Reply #46 on:** April 10, 2016, 02:30:50 PM »

Thanks for looking folks,
Ed, it is a John Armstrong guard from TOW. It required quite a bit of bending and a little reshaping to get it looking more like guards used on Noll's rifles. I like it because it is one of the few guards with a nice graceful curve to the grip rail and a long grip rail.

dave

tallbear · « **Reply #47 on:** April 11, 2016, 01:26:07 AM »

Dave

The side plate on that English gun is just killer!!!!!!Sweet work!!!!!!!!!!!

Mitch

Ed Wenger · « **Reply #48 on:** April 11, 2016, 03:53:42 AM »

Thanks, Dave! That is most helpful!.... Again, really nice work, and I agree with Mitch 100%. Thanks again!

Ed

smart dog · « **Reply #49 on:** April 16, 2016, 01:51:03 AM »

Hi,
I got a little carving done. I will finish the details later as I have to put this aside and carve a long rifle. My poor little English rifle is like an abused foster child. It always takes second place.

dave

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Author Topic: Starting mid-18th century English rifle (Updated photos) (Read 21350 times)