Author Topic: What happens when you don't swab between shots?  (Read 60658 times)

54Bucks

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2016, 03:43:42 AM »
 I've got no problem with anyone who chooses to wipe between shots. And once again the discussion has twisted away from the Subject and title into what you mentioned. But then again there are only one or two people here who know it all. They and their disciples are bothered by the stupidity of the rest of us.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2016, 05:27:15 AM »
Speaking entirely for myself alone, I learned about 35 years ago, when I was young and knew everything about shooting black powder, that I in fact did not.  And here's another one:  I have never wiped between shots with a muzzle loading rifle, so I cannot say if my accuracy would or would not improve.  So make your own choices, but listen to them all.
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Offline bones92

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2016, 09:24:50 PM »
I find good advice wherever I can.  I am just starting out in the world of BP shooting, and time doesn't permit the opportunity to get to the range often.  Nevertheless, I'm paying attention, and I plan to try some of the advice offered. 

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Offline Daryl

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2016, 09:55:36 PM »
Also the humidity - I see a big difference between what I got in the Black Hills of South Dakota with very low humidity and what I get now in Iowa !!!   :o

Humidity and as Mike notes, brand of powder can play a BIG part in how much or what type of fouling is produced.

With the combinations Taylor and I used, we find little or no difference between shooting here where the average ambient humidity is 50% - with extremes when it's raining to 85% to when we're shooting at Rendezvous at Hefley were the humidity is single digit much of the time.

I "think" that both of these changes, powder and humidity make MORE of a difference IF the ball and patch combination is on the edge of not being tight or snug enough.

If anyone wishes to wipe their bores - by all means do it. I've even noted I'd do it myself if in a match were there was a lot of time between shots. I've only tested the accuracy edge a couple times, but I did not bother to work up a load while wiping, but used the same load as I use when not wiping. I do no better accuracy when wiping- each time tested, so I don't do it.

WANTING to wipe their bores?-  I really don't care - really, I could not care less - what does bother or interest me, is someone saying they HAVE to wipe due to fouling buildup - This says they would not wipe if they did not HAVE to - and - no you don't HAVE to wipe if you use a tighter combination and appropriate lube - that's all, it's pretty simple, really - and - it is all a learning experience.

If I HAD to wipe between shots because of fouling buildup, I would have quit shooting muzzleloaders long ago.

Wanting to wipe between shots or every few shots is entirely different than HAVING to wipe. One is a choice, the other - well, LOL, as you can see - it's a choice too. ;)
Daryl

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Offline Molly

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2016, 07:11:43 AM »
I confess, I'm a wiper!

Range time (recreational/social) shooting is all I do.  I want to enjoy my time there to the fullest so I take my time and do my ritual...slow and methodical, same order same way every time.  It's like savoring a fine wine (or maybe a good cold beer).  Don't want to see the experience end.  If I get more than 8 rounds off an hour I want to slow down.  And I even enjoy the cleaning ritual as well.

Offline hanshi

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2016, 07:34:57 PM »
Interesting, Molly, that you get about 8 rounds an hour.  I say that because I don't wipe and still don't get that many more  shots an hour than you do.  In my case a couple of things affect my shooting rate.  One is that I'm SLOW, really slow.  Just born that way, I guess.  And I've never liked hurrying!  Second is the distraction caused by other shooters, changing targets, etc.  I always give my time to those who see me shoot and are curious about real muzzleloaders.

I quit wiping long ago due to getting so many misfires and finding the advantage of a tight prb and liquid lubes.  Hunting is different in that I start off with a prb lubed with (usually) Mink Oil or BB.  That way if I don't get a shot I can leave the charge in the bore.  In those instances - a long time ago - when I used grease only, I always had to wipe every two or three shots.  But when I got into the hobby I used spit patch and was aware of the advantage over grease.  But a tight prb really does make a difference.
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Offline bones92

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2016, 09:03:55 PM »
As one who has a very busy schedule,  and who is often in a rush, the slow fire of muzzleloading is the perfect experience for me.
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Offline Natureboy

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2016, 01:03:41 AM »
  It might seem contradictory to call BP shooting "peaceful," but I agree that the slow operation of a BP gun is just that.  It's a pleasure to do all the various things to effectively shoot BP, and when I go to the local rifle range, those ugly plastic-fantastic guns, with their magazines full of expensive cartridges, just seem silly.  At first, those guys seem to be amused when they watch me "fussing" with all the steps in loading and shooting, but before long they want to see and hold my flintlock.  It might take me a couple of hours to get in my usual "basic load" of 20 rounds, but that's a couple of hours spent in pure enjoyment.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2016, 03:01:32 AM »
  It might seem contradictory to call BP shooting "peaceful," but I agree that the slow operation of a BP gun is just that.  It's a pleasure to do all the various things to effectively shoot BP, and when I go to the local rifle range, those ugly plastic-fantastic guns, with their magazines full of expensive cartridges, just seem silly... It might take me a couple of hours to get in my usual "basic load" of 20 rounds, but that's a couple of hours spent in pure enjoyment.

Some of our guns can be "expensive", but a pound of powder goes bang way more times (unless you're banging a cannon) than a box of suppositories (probably cheaper these days too, I wouldn't really know as I always assembled my own suppositories  :P  )
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Offline Molly

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2016, 04:31:41 AM »
Guns which shoot brass cartridges are nothing but a passing fad!  You just watch and see.  I was a pretty dedicated "cowgirl" style shooter.  Winchesters, Colts, Springfield, Sharps, Marlin etc etc etc.  All 1866 to maybe 1885.

Have little to no use for the lot of them now.  I even don't think that much of cap locks to tell the truth.  Being on the range with any of my flintlocks and maybe a few selected shooting companions is just short of a spiritual experience.  True, a lot of people interfere with my activity but I can even tolerate that.  Sometimes I get into letting someone fire my rifles who has never had the experience.  I have hooked a few people into getting their own rifles.   I think there have even been a few time where I get things sort of set up and along comes a crowd.  I stop and do a show and tell and never get to fire the thing!  But I never leave frustrated no matter what the extent of the activity has been.  Yes, I'm a wiper, slow shooter, hardcore flintlock lover.  Not the best shot but always getting better.

Offline WaterFowl

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2016, 06:46:08 AM »
Won't a patch that is "dripping wet" impact the powder charge?

When shooting a wet lubed patch ball load......the tight fit to bore squeezes out the lube.
My patch ball combo leaves a weave imprint on the round ball.
short start your ball patch combo...pull the combo and see if there is a patch weave imprint on
the round ball...I have found that this fit was the most accurate in rifled bores on calibers from 32 to 62 cal.
With this tight fit the bore is wiped while driving the ball down to the powder.
Its that simple...
I believe the wet lube eases the starting of the ball patch
 combo to bore  only...the tight fit does the swabbing.
when shooting a lose patch ball combo my bores required wiping.

yes I use a short starter not a mallot.
This is my view using my patch ball combos.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2016, 03:51:20 PM »
Gee, can I talk about cartridge guns too? ;)
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Offline Don Steele

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2016, 04:26:24 PM »
I started another thread to keep my observations about my Coconut Oil testing from getting into this thread about swabbing. That said, this series of tests is my first experience with not swabbing/ wiping my bore after every shot. One of the first things I noticed was the formation of some kind of buildup in the breech area. In my 10 shot test, it didn't seem to have any effect, but it was definitely there, and in the thousands of rounds I've fired with wiping..it's not there.
My question is whether this buildup is common when shooting without wiping..??
Thanks.
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2016, 07:47:41 PM »
Don:  ylu've tried two new things at the same time...coconut oil, and not wiping.  Which causes the crud build-up?  I suspect it is the low flash point oil turning into asphalt in the 'chamber'.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline Daryl

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2016, 08:19:10 PM »
Taylor, or it's some sort of other "fouling".  If not wiping to the breech-plug every shot or not wiping at all, there will be fouling buildup somewhat in the 'chamber' area. This is simply normal. 

If your rod is marked for your standard load in a clean barrel and that gun is shot "all day" without wiping, say 20 to 100 shots, you will find that the mark on the rod is above the bore when the ball is seated with the same pressure, each and every time. As the shooting progresses, the mark gets higher and higher above the bore. If you MAKE the mark stay at the muzzle's crown no matter what, you will have to be over-compressing the powder to make up for the buildup in the breech - don't do that. Your load, to be accurate, must be loaded exactly the same, each time- remember- consistency.

In the 1800's throwing the rod onto the powder or compressing the charge too hard, was called "crushing or mealing" the powder. This caused different pressures and velocities which caused and causes fliers.
 
If you wipe the bore down into the breech area, the rod's load mark will remain level with the crown - obviously, as the powder chamber has never changed shot to shot.  Without wiping, that 30gr. or 80gr. or even165gr. of powder will leave some buildup in the breech, every shot, which over time (long or short) will reduce the powder chamber's diameter, and thus your stricken charge will take up more room.  On targets, I have never been able to prove to myself that this has ANY effect on accuracy as the last group of the day is virtually identical to the first ones.

By the end of the day, it is common to see 1/4" between the mark and the muzzle's crown. This matters not, if the load is seated exactly the same, with the same pressure on the powder, the accuracy will be unchanged.

When cleaning the rifle in the little stainless bucket (I stopped using coffee cans or Folgers plastic can a few weeks ago) the water only turns somewhat grayish as the only fouling that is in or on the gun is not very much at all - what's on the lock, outside of the breech, inside in the powder 'chamber' area and what is left in the bore from the last shot will only turn the water grayish.

Just for the heck of it, I've found if I load 20gr. of powder for my last shot of the day - puuuuut- ------------tunk on the big #1 target plate - 20gr., which barely fills the hollow of the breech plug in the .69's patent breach - most ALL of that accumulated fouling form the day's shooting has now been wiped from that chamber's walls and pushed from the bottom of the grooves back to the plug itself by the patches ball - then fired. 

The cleaning water of that day's shooting which had that 20gr. 'cleaning charge' fired, barely changes water colour at all (includes outside barrel breech fouling and lock fouling) as all of the builtup fouling that was in the breach was blown out with the last 20gr. shot that made barely more noise than my .22 cal. PCP air rifle.
Daryl

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Offline bones92

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2016, 05:21:23 PM »
Daryl, very interesting.   This thread is teaching me much.
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Offline hanshi

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #41 on: February 27, 2016, 09:47:36 PM »
Yes, this thread is very interesting.  I recall reading an article decades ago - can't remember by who - called "Slowpoke Shotgunning".  It was, of course, about ML shooting.  The point was well made as it almost vies (almost) with puppy dogs as a stress reliever.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
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Offline Leatherbark

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2016, 04:53:48 PM »
 >:(Muzzleloading is peaceful until you cut your thumb on a sharp flint or pound the short starter and the ball doesn't enter the bore and it hurts. Or your rip the palm of your hand on that nice sharp front sight.

Bob


Offline Daryl

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2016, 09:43:44 PM »
 or- raise the rod before shoving it down to get a bit more momentum to start the tightly patched ball moving, you inadvertently pull the rod up clear of the muzzle then when you ram it down, the rod misses the bore and you remove the skin off 2 knuckles as they hit the top corner flats of the barrel- ouch! More painful if it's cold (freezing) and the skin seems more likely to come off in a large rounded chunk. Eh, Leatherbelly,  LOL - happened to me a couple weekends ago - again, but only cut it part way off - healed already.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2016, 09:45:30 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline hanshi

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2016, 11:19:34 PM »
There ain't no free lunch.  ;D
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
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Offline retired fella

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #45 on: February 29, 2016, 12:50:34 AM »
Daryl,

How about cutting your fingertip with your patch knife (normally when it is cold) and not notice it until there is blood all over your shooting kit.  OUCH.

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #46 on: February 29, 2016, 07:12:19 PM »
Fired this yesterday with no wiping. Just a wet patch of pillow ticking with virgin olive oil. ;D

canvas by Rick Mulhern, on Flickr

Offline Daryl

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #47 on: February 29, 2016, 08:21:32 PM »
Daryl,

How about cutting your fingertip with your patch knife (normally when it is cold) and not notice it until there is blood all over your shooting kit.  OUCH.

Spot-on - often - hey! Where's that blood coming from - then you look -  OH - @!*%. When you crack open your knuckles on the corner flats for the muzzle- you know right away. LOL
Daryl

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Offline Daryl

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #48 on: February 29, 2016, 08:25:43 PM »
This posted as a sample. The rifle used is a VERY accurate rifle, .690 calibre (14bore) - if you don't flinch, that is. Happened first target as you can see by the far right hit.

Here's a couple groups with no wiping - shot while testing loads - could have been 30 or 40 shots fired before these, maybe less - doesn't matter. The accuracy does not change.

Note the interesting (to me) & varied load data, including notation on how they shot at 100 meters. All rest shooting at a bench.

This target shot with a .662" WW ball and 2, .017(compressed) denim patches.



This target shot with a larger, .675" pure lead ball. The measurement should read 1.785" - .675" = 1.11"  .684" is the normal pure lead ball diameter I use in this rifle. The "heavy denim" is 12 ounce, .025" with my mic cranked down and .030" with my new 'Hornady' calipers. (they are nice) There are only 6 hits visible on this target, so the British Columbia Black Powder Federation scorer's would score 4 or 5 misses for 50 or 60/100, if the 4" bull scored 10.
As to the winter windshield washer fluid + pine sol- I usually don't use soap, just tried it that day. Didn't make any difference - or maybe it did? I did not cross-test with anything else so the results, better or worse, are not conclusive of anything- just that most anything works if the basics ie: water, is present.



I made the ball holes undersized as this appears to be closer to a 1.5" group by the size of the circles I used in 'paint'.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 08:56:45 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline Bill Ladd

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2016, 04:49:09 PM »
Just for the heck of it, I've found if I load 20gr. of powder for my last shot of the day - puuuuut- ------------tunk on the big #1 target plate - 20gr., which barely fills the hollow of the breech plug in the .69's patent breach - most ALL of that accumulated fouling form the day's shooting has now been wiped from that chamber's walls and pushed from the bottom of the grooves back to the plug itself by the patches ball - then fired. 

The cleaning water of that day's shooting which had that 20gr. 'cleaning charge' fired, barely changes water colour at all (includes outside barrel breech fouling and lock fouling) as all of the builtup fouling that was in the breach was blown out with the last 20gr. shot that made barely more noise than my .22 cal. PCP air rifle.


Never heard this before.  Out shooting my .36 the other day and tried it with around five grains of powder and a super-sloppy wet patch.

My rifle has never been so easy to clean!  I'm sold on this and can't wait to try it on my other rifles.