Author Topic: Gumpf of Lancaster PA counter stamped large cent coin. Opinions & info welcomed (Read 10627 times)

Jmeldrum · « **on:** March 30, 2016, 08:38:24 PM »

Hello,

I am a coin collector and I'm always looking for unique and unusual items. I found this counter stamped coin that reads CA Gumpf Lancaster. I found it in a coin dealers $1 bargain box. I didn't know anything about it when I bought it but my instincts told me to buy it. I tried doing some google searches I found that there was a family of Gumpfs in Lancaster PA that made Kentucky long rifles. A little more research and I found some literature that said there was someone in the Gumpf family that stamped their guns with a A stamped over a C. That's as far as I've gotten. I cannot find a gun or coin with the same stamp. I do see some other Gumpf family guns that have some pretty high price tags. I figured that this forum would be my best bet to find more info. I do not know much about guns but I imagine that this might appeal to a gun collector more than a coin collector. I would like to sell it eventually so I'd like to know if anyone has an opinion on where to sell an item like this and what the value might be. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

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Shreckmeister · « **Reply #1 on:** March 30, 2016, 10:13:13 PM »

If I were considering it, I would wonder why the patina in the bottom of the Gumpf Lancaster letters is a different color than in the area around
the Liberty. I would also wonder why the beveling around the coin only affected the L in Lancaster and not much on the other letters that
lap over into the beveled area. It could be original or it could be that at some time in the past, the stamping was done to add value. I don't know
why the edges are beveled to begin with. I would also find out what period this coin was likely minted and if that was during the Gumpf era
of longrifle making. If those things vet out, then the guys on this forum would be a likely place to market it.

tallbear · « **Reply #2 on:** March 31, 2016, 12:28:01 AM »

Seems to me I've seen these before.I'm going to move this to the collecting forum as I think it will get more attention there.

Mitch

Jmeldrum · « **Reply #3 on:** March 31, 2016, 12:31:32 AM »

It's a coronet head large cent which were minted between 1816 - 1839. The patina looks normal to me. Not sure what you are referring to there. There's no doubt this is authentic. And in reference to the L in Lancaster. It's most likely just not struck deeply. I don't know why the edges are beveled either. Ive looked at lots of counter stamped coins but haven't found any that are like that. Thanks for your opinions.

Eric Kettenburg · « **Reply #4 on:** March 31, 2016, 01:44:27 AM »

I've seen either this same coin posted somewhere a number of years ago (say within the last 10 + or -) or another very similar. I say this with no ill will, and you may disagree, but it's not right. One would assume the stamping was accomplished approximately within the period of the coin's minting, i.e. within maybe 20-30 years or so. Why does the coin look 200 years old but the stamping looks as though it was struck yesterday? Even comparing the portion of the center of the coin around the 'Liberty' text which evinces less wear and more sharpness, there is still a very noticeable difference in the way the 'Liberty' text has worn as well as the edges of the relief boss around the text in comparison to the way the counterstamping has worn - or I should say, not worn. There is simply too much wrong here to be believable and the stamping is not showing appropriate signs of genuine age (even if one takes cleaning into consideration) or genuine wear. It looks contrived.

Of course I could be wrong. My opinion only, since you posted it specifically requesting opinions.

Whether this is the same coin which was discussed somewhere previously or a different coin, I can assure you the exact same issues were brought up, leading me to believe that if it's not the same, someone 'out there' is likely making these.

jdm · « **Reply #5 on:** March 31, 2016, 02:05:13 AM »

Eric,
I'm with you on this . I've seen this somewhere before. Several years ago. Was it here?
Coin looks old .

Eric Kettenburg · « **Reply #6 on:** March 31, 2016, 02:41:23 AM »

OK, in 2012 we discussed a JJ Henry stamped coin with the same issues as this one; exceptionally crisp, new-looking counterstamp. That is the discussion I'm remembering, and it got very interesting. I think inevitably we were talking past each other.

Man, it would be SO easy to fake these things, and believably too. I can see why they generally do not seem to bring much money because there is essentially no definitive way to verify.

They sure do look neat, though.

I still vote for a secretive, underground "death to the penny" movement which seems to finally have picked up some steam in recent years.

rich pierce · « **Reply #7 on:** March 31, 2016, 02:47:24 AM »

That coin has been hammered quite a bit to have that bevel at the edge. Can see the individual blows. And it shows flattening as much as wear in some areas. Just an observation that doesn't really address the authenticity except to clarify wear versus manipulation.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #8 on:** March 31, 2016, 02:56:09 AM »

OK, I'm baffled...why would a gumaker stamp a coin? I'm a little lost......I can't see the stamp really increasing the coin value, but it is sort of a cool thing.

Jmeldrum · « **Reply #9 on:** March 31, 2016, 03:27:58 AM »

From what I've gathered, gun makers would use coins to practice their stamps with. I appreciate the opinions but I respectfully disagree with anyone who questions the authenticity of this. Why would anyone fake this?

Jmeldrum · « **Reply #10 on:** March 31, 2016, 03:36:11 AM »

rich pierce · « **Reply #11 on:** March 31, 2016, 03:42:17 AM »

Interesting hypothesis that a gunmaker would test a new stamp on a coin. Sounds like a rare event. Like once per stamp. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen that one coin was saved.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #12 on:** March 31, 2016, 06:12:05 AM »

Oh $#*!, I'll double what you gave for it...

spgordon · « **Reply #13 on:** March 31, 2016, 01:48:53 PM »

I remember the JJHenry coin discussion well:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=20318.0

Scott

Shreckmeister · « **Reply #14 on:** March 31, 2016, 03:06:08 PM »

If you follow the link that Scott posted you will find the image of the JJ Henry Boulton coin. It's interesting that the same coin was selected for stamping by the two gunsmiths. Even more interesting is the fonts used are nearly identical.

spgordon · « **Reply #15 on:** March 31, 2016, 03:20:35 PM »

The coin in the JJH posts is dated 1814: the Gumph coin, according to the poster, is "a coronet head large cent which were minted between 1816 - 1839." But they sure look identical, though with very different amounts of wear. Good catch, Rob!

I know nothing about counterstamps or about coins. But I will add here, as I said in the JJH post, that that 1814 coin would not have been stamped "J. J. Henry / Boulton" in 1814. Perhaps in 1822 and after, when J. J. Henry took over Boulton--which, earlier, had been a joint operation between him and his brother and the stamps reflected that (J. & W. Henry, typically). In 1814, J. J. Henry was working as a gunsmith in Philadelphia.

Joe S. · « **Reply #16 on:** April 01, 2016, 02:47:34 AM »

I'm scratching my head on this.Why would you fake the stamp,not worth a whole lot.Test the new stamp,with all the scrap around a shop why not use it.I'm sure money ment a little more back then even if it was a just a "penny".Then I'm going back a ways but a watering whole up the road a ways used to put a round sticker on the backs of quarters with their name and address on them and where given back out as change.They would be scattered to all parts in hopes of free advertisement.The difference in patinas bothers me,wonder if it was done when they say it was was the stamp heated red hot explaining the deeper color?but why heat the stamp?got me beguiled

oakridge · « **Reply #17 on:** April 02, 2016, 06:03:03 AM »

I'm not a collector of these, but I'm somewhat familiar with counter-stamped coins. From what I see here, I agree with the OP that it's genuine. Merchants would stamp these coins as a means of advertising. I've seen two others with a gunsmith's name on them. The date on the coin is meaningless, unless, of course, the coin was minted later than the merchant worked.

Counter-stamped coins usually don't bring much money, so I can't really see much advantage in faking them. Counter-stamping on a high condition coin actually degrades it.

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #18 on:** April 02, 2016, 05:35:17 PM »

An friend of mine, also an ALR member, sent me this photo of a signed A Gumpf rifle. Note the difference in the stamp.
Dennis

Shreckmeister · « **Reply #19 on:** April 02, 2016, 06:02:57 PM »

It's getting more interesting. Both stamps appear to say c gumpf Lancaster. With the A stamped over the C maybe they were individually adding the A. The fonts look the same and the tilt between the words is the same. I'm beginning to think that coin might be legit

Levy · « **Reply #20 on:** April 03, 2016, 06:19:09 AM »

I once owned a percussion half-stock rifle that re-used a swamped barrel signed C. Gumpf. I think there was a Christian and a Christopher Gumpf, but can't swear on it.

James Levy

Bill Ladd · « **Reply #21 on:** April 03, 2016, 03:14:09 PM »

oakridge · « **Reply #22 on:** April 03, 2016, 05:43:24 PM »

Obviously, the "A" was added separately to the "C. GUMPF" stamp. The "A" is in a different position on the coin than on the rifle. Maybe A. Gumpf was the successor to C. Gumpf, and he used the old stamp, then added the "A". Whatever the reason, as I said before, I'm sure the coin is legitimate.

Uncle Miltie · « **Reply #23 on:** May 02, 2016, 06:55:37 PM »

Counterstamped large cents are relatively common. Those with known entities like famous gunsmiths are desirable. When judging the condition of coins like cents that were very heavily circulated in their day, please keep in mind in the larger cities like Philadelphia, Boston and New York that coins would often be worn slick after only 10 years or so of use. Remember, in those days one cent was real money that could be used to buy something meaningful. I have collected old American coppers for 45 years, and think your coin looks right as rain, and could have been stamped right up to the Civil War.

To a collector of Gumpf stuff, the coin is desirable as a form of business card. As an aside, I am looking for counterstamped coins by H.V. Perry of Jamestown NY, or any Ohio makers, so if anyone has one, I'll buy it..

HRobert5 · « **Reply #24 on:** May 15, 2016, 12:21:55 AM »

I, like the original poster, have been collecting coins for many years (50+ in my case). The simple explanation of the lack of wear on the overstamp, is the fact that during that era large cents tended to be worth more as bullion than as coinage. (hence the shaving around the edge) They were often hoarded causing a scarcity in coinage in circulation. This in turn lead to merchants making all kinds of private issue coins, tokens, etc. for use as fractional money. This practice survived until after the Civil War in parts of the country. I can easily person who bought a Gumpf rifle putting the coin away as a memento.

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Author Topic: Gumpf of Lancaster PA counter stamped large cent coin. Opinions & info welcomed (Read 10627 times)

Jmeldrum

Jmeldrum

Jmeldrum

Jmeldrum

oakridge

oakridge

HRobert5