Author Topic: Help with ID - Queen Anne Pistol  (Read 6373 times)

Trustee1

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Help with ID - Queen Anne Pistol
« on: May 10, 2016, 10:58:18 PM »
Pops was a collector and left behind 2 Squirrel Rifles, 1 Fowling Piece and 2 Pocket Pistols so I joined ALR for research and help.  For this, my 2nd posting, my thanks to all who have been so helpful with my Ketland post.  I look forward to hearing from any and all who can help identify, date, ..... this neat old Queen Anne pocket or muff pistol.  A few pics and general description are included below:

A civilian-style Queen Anne pistol (ca 1660-1790) 6-1/2" long having a tapered, screw-on barrel 1-1/2" in length to the lug and a smooth bore approximately 5/8" in diameter at the muzzle.  The barrel has no sights, no proof marks and no visible maker or other marks.  The action is flintlock with a sliding safety and integrated folding trigger which is lightly engraved but without lock makers stamp.  The grip is walnut and includes silver wire inlay and backstrap.  

My interest is piqued because a similar looking pistol made by John Fox Twigg with significantly more appointments is for sale on Guns International by Lewis, Drake & Assoc.  I mention this only because they say the engraving includes Twigg's first form of signature (perhaps the star in the oval since letters do not appear to be present, a similar star in oval is included on this pistol and I have not been able to find reference materials related to Fox's signatures).  Regards - Kurt













« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 03:14:41 PM by Ky-Flinter »

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Help with ID - Queen Anne Pistol
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2016, 11:58:47 PM »
That's very doubtful. You haven't shown us the proof marks but I strongly suspect Twigg had been dead 20 years when that was made. It is a conventional, Birmingham trade pocket pistol, probably post 1813 and isn't even close to Twigg's quality. Twigg almost certainly did sell such pistols, albeit very well made ones, and I doubt any were made in his shop regardless of the signature.

Online smart dog

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Re: Help with ID - Queen Anne Pistol
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2016, 02:33:08 AM »
Hi,
As Joe stated, it is a late 18th century early 19th century "box lock" pistol.  It is not "Queen Anne" in any shape or form. It is also of modest quality. 

dave
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Swab

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Re: Help with ID - Queen Anne Pistol
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2016, 04:33:00 PM »
I would say definitely 19th century.  I saw one nearly identical in an antique shop a few years ago (everything was overpriced in the store) with the same hidden trigger screw barrel safety etc. and I believe they had $850 on it.  As far as queen anne pistols go.  Here is mine (dated around 1810), note the frizzen spring, pan, the lock for halfcock also locks the frizzen, and turn off barrel.  I view this as the "Queen Anne" perfected.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 03:17:06 PM by Ky-Flinter »

The Rambling Historian

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Re: Help with ID - Queen Anne Pistol
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2016, 10:10:25 PM »
The issue is that many people call all flintlock pistols with turn-off barrels Queen Annes, but a true Queen Anne pistol has a combination breech/lock plate and side mounted lock, not a box lock action. That doesn't stop dozens of people from selling box-lock pistols as Queen Annes through Gunbroker and other places spreading the misnomer.

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Help with ID - Queen Anne Pistol
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2016, 11:38:49 PM »
The issue is that many people call all flintlock pistols with turn-off barrels Queen Annes, but a true Queen Anne pistol has a combination breech/lock plate and side mounted lock, not a box lock action. That doesn't stop dozens of people from selling box-lock pistols as Queen Annes through Gunbroker and other places spreading the misnomer.

The term is a modern contrivance, much like it's use for powder flasks.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Help with ID - Queen Anne Pistol
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2016, 11:51:28 PM »
Yep, top gun is a boxlock pocket pistol with a turn off barrel. If it has no Brit proofs it may even be Belgian. The lower gun is a side lock pocket pistol with a turn off barrel. A "Queen Anne" should probably at least be made during her reign..... ;)
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Swab

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Re: Help with ID - Queen Anne Pistol
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2016, 06:14:10 AM »
Yep, top gun is a boxlock pocket pistol with a turn off barrel. If it has no Brit proofs it may even be Belgian. The lower gun is a side lock pocket pistol with a turn off barrel. A "Queen Anne" should probably at least be made during her reign..... ;)

I always understood a "Queen Anne" to have 3 primary features.  An integrated lock, the rear mounted frizzen spring, and a turn off barrel.  Technically a "Queen Anne" is any gun made during her reign whether it be pistol or musket.  The pistol I posted incorporates these three features which is why I refer to it as a "Queen Anne" even though it was made post her reign.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Help with ID - Queen Anne Pistol
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2016, 02:35:55 PM »
"Queen Anne" pistol is a modern moniker. It wasn't used back in the day.
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline eastwind

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Re: Help with ID - Queen Anne Pistol
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2016, 09:36:12 PM »
The pistol in question (top gun) is not a Queen Anne Style pistol in the accepted sense and nothing on the gun shows it was made by Twigg. The pistol in International Guns does indeed show Twigg's first signature, while his later signature was in script. But then again, that pistol looks more like a copy of Twigg's work, than an original.

In fact, the British collector/expert Keith Neal (who probably owned more Twigg guns  than anyone) said Twigg was one of the most copied gunsmiths in the late 1700s - early 1800... perhaps the major reason he changed his signature from a simple typeface to a flourished script.

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Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Help with ID - Queen Anne Pistol
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2016, 09:53:17 PM »
As Mike says, Queen Anne" is a pure "collectorism". It has no proper definition. I've always taken ti suggest a sidelock, turn-off barrel pistol of the type popular during her reign, which ended in 1714. Pistols of that type continued to be made into the 1730s. This example is more properly called a "box lock pocket pistol" which is exactly what it is.

One thing that modern collectors tend to forget is that gunmakers weren't artists (though some were very artistic). They were tradesmen, trying to make a living. Robert Wogden, for instance, lived over the shop. Twigg's name commonly forged because he was well known. DeWitt Bailey once pointed out that there was a big market in "used" up-market guns and that some extremely good Birmingham makers literally made "fake" used guns... because they were easier to sell. This one isn't even that. Its a mid-quality pocket pistol, of which tens of thousands were made, marked with a spurious name because it was presumed, almost certainly correctly, that the potential buyer had probably never seen a real Twigg gun and wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Practically everyone above the social class of day laborer carried pocket pistols in the 18th and early 19th century but, unless you were a member of the landed gentry or worked in such a household, you probably never saw any of the products of the great London makers.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Help with ID - Queen Anne Pistol
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2016, 11:25:22 PM »
Guys I hate to do this but rules are rules and this one does not meet ALR rules (boxlock not a sidelock) I will leave it up but have locked it.
Dennis
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1.  The building or recreation of custom side lock muzzle loading sporting arms that would have been made or used in North America between 1607 and 1898.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 11:29:23 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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