Gunmaking trade at Bethlehem

[Dennis Glazener]

See our "Recent Books" forum for more information on this article
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=40084.0

[spgordon]

I appreciate Dennis posting this heading and a link to the fuller description in another thread. But I think that other thread is the wrong place. This announcement belongs here in the particular forum where research into gunmakers and gunmaking is discussed. Over there, it seems as if the point of our announcement is to sell copies of the Journal. That'd be nice, but neither Bob nor I profit from that in any way. I hope that if folks read the article, have any thoughts, or have any questions, they'll post them here, not over there. This is the area of this great site where research gets discussed. -- Scott

[Dennis Glazener]

Sorry, I thought that's were Bob wanted me to put the info. It's shown below:

Scott Gordon and Bob Lienemann have just published an article in the Journal of Moravian History which describes the gunmaking trade at Bethlehem, Christian’s Spring and Nazareth from 1750 to 1800.  So much has been assumed about the men and boys in these shops.  This article shows who worked there and how their work changed over time, including two wars.  This is carefully documented history – not a photo book. It has 45 pages of text and only seven illustrations – two photos show the cheekpiece with star, wire inlay and barrel signature of one “new” Oerter rifle.  The article will not make you a better gunstocker, but will show how Albrecht, Oerter, and others worked within these carefully managed communities.

Unlike Scott’s recent essays on Jacob Dickert and Andreas Albrecht which are available online, this one is not available anywhere online for free. You can purchase a copy of this issue of the Journal for $15 plus mailing. If interested, contact Kelly Givens at the Moravian Archives Bethlehem at (610 866 3255) or email her at kelly@moravianchurcharchives.org.  What little income they make from sales of issues of the Journal supports the Archives' efforts to make history available, and to support future research.

 

[spgordon]

I think Bob was being properly scrupulous about the fact that the announcement included information about how to get a copy of the article (i.e., to purchase it). But as an invitation to discuss the topic, it seems to me it [also] belongs here. If people read & have thoughts, share them!

[Karl Kunkel]

I sent Kelly an e-mail requesting info on how to order a copy.

[Dennis Glazener]

You can purchase a copy of this issue of the Journal for $15 plus mailing. If interested, contact Kelly Givens at the Moravian Archives Bethlehem at (610 866 3255) or email her at kelly@moravianchurcharchives.org

If you call Kelly Givens she will take your order and you can charge to purchase price to your credit card or she will give you the address to mail a check if you prefer. I got mine within 3 days of calling.
Dennis

[Bill Paton]

My copy made it to Alaska already through the same order instructions. Good info well researched and written.

Bill Paton

[spgordon]

Thanks for being interested to read the article. I'm sure Bob and I are both eager to hear further thoughts, questions, etc. We realize that this article is just the start of a conversation. Best regards -- Scott

[Tom Currie]

I received the Moravian Journal Article and read it over the past weekend. First off to Scott and Bob , thanks for sharing your research and helping to raise some funds for the Moravian Archives .

I'll pose a few questions and some thoughts.

1) The whole idea that the skills of the " gunstockers" was primary a way to further the missionary work and not for economic gain is so unlike 20th century ideals. For me anyway. I wonder if that was frustrating for the gunstockers. Did they feel undervalued for the skills they had ?

2 ) I guess this sort of puts to bed the idea that the other Moravian gunsmiths working outside of Bethlehem and Christian's Spring were trained within the Moravian shops. That would be Dickert, Antes, Graef  Matthias Roesser   Who then trained those guys ?

3) With all the restrictions the Moravian Leaders put on William Henry, how was Jacob Dickert ( a Moravian ) able to effectively run his business without oversight of the church. Was he somehow a Moravian who just went his own way ? Separated from the church ? The Moravians still obviously still did business with him.

4) The picture of the previously unpublished Oerter stock was of course interesting. For me however that's 4 of 5 signed Oerter guns that have only wire inlay for decoration on the butt stock, and one fabulously carved stock. If Oerter carved the griffon why wasn't he carving more ? He clearly liked to lay  art on his products. So who really carved that griffon ? We know about the Lion/Lamb and Dog carved unsigned rifles . Was that person's hand involved here also ? 

[Eric Kettenburg]

Tom the only interjection I would put forth here is that we have no idea who built the lion and dog carved rifles.  They *appear* to have a connection to the assorted other Bethlehem/CA assumed pieces and of course William Marshall's rifle (griffin).  To the extent that all three appear to be the same guy.  And Oerter signed the griffin gun.  Why would we assume he didn't make all three?  We've sure attributed a lot of pieces based upon a whole lot less.  And the griffin gun essentially melds both decorative styles, and very effectively if I may say so.  I suspect he was simply a really competent guy.  I guess I'm saying that I don't see anything prohibitive in seeing all of these pieces as products of his hand.  I don't see much validity in trying to straightjacket anyone with a modicum of talent into one form or the other.

The change in stock architecture - well, all I can say there is this:  we have for a long time assumed that the work being sold out of Bethlehem/CS was influencing regional work.  Why could it not also work the other way around?  Johannes Moll in Allentown was very nearby and was definitely a contemporary of Albrecht and Oerter also - he was considerably older than has been previously thought, and was noted as a gunsmith as early as 1752-ish.  So, maybe his work was influencing a change to Oerter's stock architecture, rather than vice-versa?  Peter Neihart was also somewhat contemporary to Oerter, and there were a few others definitely in the region who as yet it is not quite possible to assign names.

I guess I'm saying that the exchange of influences had to be a two-way street.

[rich pierce]

I received the Moravian Journal Article and read it over the past weekend. First off to Scott and Bob , thanks for sharing your research and helping to raise some funds for the Moravian Archives .

I'll pose a few questions and some thoughts.

1) The whole idea that the skills of the " gunstockers" was primary a way to further the missionary work and not for economic gain is so unlike 20th century ideals. For me anyway. I wonder if that was frustrating for the gunstockers. Did they feel undervalued for the skills they had ?

2 ) I guess this sort of puts to bed the idea that the other Moravian gunsmiths working outside of Bethlehem and Christian's Spring were trained within the Moravian shops. That would be Dickert, Antes, Graef  Matthias Roesser   Who then trained those guys ?

1) From reading Albrecht's testimony, I don't think he worried as much about worldly things as most folks do.

2) If I recall correctly some of these guys like Albrecht were off the boat, trained in Europe.

[blienemann]

A few comments re questions raised -

The intro to Moravian Gunmaking describes the variety of communities established here.  Bethlehem with Nazareth and C's Spring, and Salem with Bethabara in NC were "closed communities" with a communal organization of like minded residents for a number of years, and with careful management of the trades and life.  Gunstockers in those locations supported mission work and met other needs as directed - and this changed over time. 

Lancaster, York, Philadelphia and New York were well established towns where a Moravian church was added as another place to worship - but with far less - if any influence on the trades of its members.  Thus Dickert and others there could work for economic gain.  There was not a single "Moravian" setting or way of life.   

Much more to learn about where these other men learned their trade.  Looking at who they married - and the father in law's trade sometimes gives us a clue.  A descendant of Roesser will publish soon, showing that Matthias came from a family of locksmiths and gunsmiths in Europe.  He may have trained others. 

The Revolution brought ideas of "American freedom", and many of the young men desired freedom from the restrictions - including who they could marry.  Oerter's memoir says that he considered pulling away from the community at some point, but stayed.  Albrecht was much older with different experience.  He seems to have appreciated the communal approach in the 1750's and 60's, but at age 53, he found himself with a small but growing family and the need to provide for them through his labor at Lititz.  Bob

[spgordon]

3) With all the restrictions the Moravian Leaders put on William Henry, how was Jacob Dickert ( a Moravian ) able to effectively run his business without oversight of the church. Was he somehow a Moravian who just went his own way ? Separated from the church ? The Moravians still obviously still did business with him. lso ?  

Great question. The answer is (relatively) straightforward: Dickert did not work in a "closed" Moravian community such as Bethlehem, Nazareth, or Lititz--and the church made no effort whatsoever to control the trades of its members in cities such as Lancaster, New York, Philadelphia, etc. The church controlled trades only in their "closed" communities and they did so to minimize (or eliminate) competition, etc., to ensure a living for all members, to make sure there were no disparities in economic status, etc. Again, there was no effort or even interest in doing this outside of these closed communities.

BTW, the church's constant tensions with William Henry weren't related to his profession: by the time he joined the church (1765), he had ceased working as a gunsmith. The church's tensions with him focused on his enthusiastic engagement in revolutionary politics, and their concern that he was encouraging others, including those in closed communities, to engage in such "worldly" concerns as well.

Scott

[spgordon]

1) The whole idea that the skills of the " gunstockers" was primary a way to further the missionary work and not for economic gain is so unlike 20th century ideals. For me anyway. I wonder if that was frustrating for the gunstockers. Did they feel undervalued for the skills they had ?

This is another great point. I'd add that we need to realize, too, that gunstocking and gunmaking was serious labor--not the hobby that it is for most folks who make such guns today. Most of these gunsmiths, I believe, would have left the trade were they able to have taken up a trade that was "white" collar. This does not mean that they disrespected labor or looked down on gunsmithing--but why labor in the often barely remunerative trade of gunsmith when one could, as was the case with William Henry, make a good living as a merchant (importer)? Again, this did not involve any disrespect for labor. Most men labored for a living, and Henry placed several of his sons as gunsmiths. But ... if one could "escape" this labor ... one did.

Was Albrecht disappointed to leave his trade behind when he became proprietor of the Sun Tavern? Maybe. Maybe not. Did he prefer to work at the forge or at the bench or did he prefer to teach kids music? He left no record as to which he preferred. But I think that our interest in gunmaking and the gun trade distorts our sense of the attitudes of these men. For them, gunmaking may have been merely one way to make a living, a trade they may have been placed in by parents, rather than by their choice--rather than a profession that they had some deep connection to (beyond its ability to supply them with a living).

[spgordon]

2 ) I guess this sort of puts to bed the idea that the other Moravian gunsmiths working outside of Bethlehem and Christian's Spring were trained within the Moravian shops. That would be Dickert, Antes, Graef  Matthias Roesser   Who then trained those guys ?

One more response--sorry! My earlier piece on Jacob Dickert makes some effort to speculate about who trained him (and his training occurred in PA, not in the old country): http://www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entry.php?rec=180  See around footnote 19.

Scott

[rich pierce]

Thanks, Scott.  Looks like Dickert would have been 4-7 years old when he arrived in America.

[spgordon]

Thanks, Scott.  Looks like Dickert would have been 4-7 years old when he arrived in America.

Yes ... some uncertainly about whether the family immigrated in 1744 (as ship records suggest) or 1747 (as Dickert recalled later).

Scott