Author Topic: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks  (Read 4218 times)

Offline haddockkl

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 72
Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« on: July 14, 2016, 05:38:44 AM »
The title says it all, I'm after pictures of original flintlock Leman locks, and Leman built rifles. If anyone has any such images I would greatly appreciate if you share them for a project I have in mind. I've attached a shot of a rifle at the Henry Ford museum in Detroit, but it sure looks like it was reconverted to me.
 
Thanks
KH

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2078
Re: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2016, 06:55:07 AM »
There a few Leman in the ALR Library.
Hurricane

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5531
Re: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2016, 02:26:39 PM »
The title says it all, I'm after pictures of original flintlock Leman locks, and Leman built rifles. If anyone has any such images I would greatly appreciate if you share them for a project I have in mind. I've attached a shot of a rifle at the Henry Ford museum in Detroit, but it sure looks like it was reconverted to me.
 
Thanks
KH

That lock is very similar to the Ketland I used to make.

Bob Roller

timM

  • Guest
Re: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2016, 06:58:26 PM »
Great Gun Makers for the Early West Vol. II by James D. Gordon.  tim

Offline Clowdis

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 203
Re: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2016, 09:19:14 PM »
The whole rifle looks "fresh". It must have been a complete restoration. On the other hand, the Henry Ford Museum has some VERY nice stuff.

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4555
Re: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2016, 12:46:15 AM »
Yes, Jim Gordon's book has some very nice photo's or you could go to his museum and take your own pics. It's worth the trip.

Offline haddockkl

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 72
Re: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2016, 02:00:56 PM »
The whole rifle was quite ornate for a Leman, and I don't think the whole rifle was a restock but a presentation piece.
 
 
I intend to get the Gourdon books as soon as I can free up the funds, seems like whenever there is some fun money it turns into something else.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 02:04:12 PM by haddockkl »

Offline cshirsch

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
Re: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2019, 03:57:10 PM »
There a few Leman in the ALR Library.
Hurricane



Offline Tanselman

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 893
Re: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2019, 03:30:53 AM »
I'm not sure the above lock is an original flint. While the cock looks pretty good, the frizzen, pan, and frizzen spring all look new to me, and the frizzen spring is way out of position. The border around the lock is still visible under the frizzen spring, which often indicates an original percussion lock was incorrectly converted to a flintlock, as this one appears to be. On most original flints, the engraved border usually is interrupted, i.e. not continuous, where the frizzen spring sits. Shelby Gallien

Offline Hlbly

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
Re: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2019, 03:50:43 PM »
I'm not sure the above lock is an original flint. While the cock looks pretty good, the frizzen, pan, and frizzen spring all look new to me, and the frizzen spring is way out of position. The border around the lock is still visible under the frizzen spring, which often indicates an original percussion lock was incorrectly converted to a flintlock, as this one appears to be. On most original flints, the engraved border usually is interrupted, i.e. not continuous, where the frizzen spring sits. Shelby Gallien
This is obviously a poor attempt to make a flintlock out of a percussion. Back in the Ď60s and Ď70s lots of antique dealers actually believed that all full stock guns were supposed to be flintlock.

Online rich pierce

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12061
Re: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2019, 03:55:12 PM »
You all are probably right but the cock looks much more original than the pan and frizzen spring and so on. Locks like this are confusing to me.
St. Louis, Missouri

Offline cshirsch

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
Re: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2019, 05:43:28 PM »
I realize it is a funky looking lock but I have examined the pair of matching rifles and my opinion is they were actually made this way.  I realize you guys may not know me but I have some experience in this field.  I know, it's crazy.

 

Offline Mtn Meek

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 217
    • GRRW Collector
Re: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2019, 09:05:58 PM »
I agree with Mr. Hirsch that the lock he pictured is, in all likelihood, in its original flint condition.

There is a Chief's grade Leman rifle pictured in Rifles of the American Indians by Gale, Ness, and Mikelson (pages 11-16) that has a very similar lock with the same frizzen spring located high on the nose of the plate just like the lock pictured my Hirsch.
Phil Meek

Online rich pierce

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12061
Re: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2019, 09:06:58 PM »
It requires a story, I think. Here goes. Leman gets an order for flintlock rifles in the 1840s and is short of flintlocks and converts at least one percussion lock using parts laying around.
St. Louis, Missouri

Offline Hlbly

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
Re: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2019, 09:22:43 PM »
I am baffled as to how anyone could think that third lock pictured is original flint. The frizzen spring is a terrible attempt, the pan is much too low on the barrel and too far forward. The cock is an old one, but those were available years ago because people actually took them off because they didnít like the looks of a double throat hammer. If I ever end up with a really bad conversion I will know where to market it.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 09:26:56 PM by Hlbly »

Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 913
Re: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2019, 09:28:40 PM »
 ;) ;) ;)... Gerald,... I will buy any poorly  converted Tennessee rifles you want to move and set them back to caplock,... !!! ... kinda fond of "cap & ball" hog rifles myself,... !!!... regards, CCF....

Offline Mtn Meek

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 217
    • GRRW Collector
Re: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2019, 11:53:29 PM »
Here is the other rifle I spoke of with similar lock.


Rich's story is a plausible one concerning how these Leman rifles and locks came to be.

There is another story concerning these rifles.  Back some 70+/- years ago, someone found a whole bunch of Leman rifles in a warehouse still in the original crate they had been shipped in from the Leman factory.  The crate contained 10 or 12 un-issued Leman rifles in percussion and flint ignition.  These rifles are scattered around in different collections now.  A percussion rifle is in the Museum of the Fur Trade.  Jim Gordon may have another.  Larry Ness has the one pictured above.

I was talking with Jack Brooks about these flint Lemans with the 1840 date on the lock.  He said he has had two of them come through his shop and knew of a few others.  The two he worked on had very poor quality locks that were barely functional, but looked like they were original flint locks.

One would probably have to be able to examine these rifles in person to be convinced, but they're clearly not a "one off".
Phil Meek

Offline cshirsch

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
Re: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2019, 12:22:42 AM »
It seems that some are hung up in the world of 'anything out of the ordinary can't be correct'.  One thing I am sure of with antique guns, as soon as someone says it was never done, one shows up.  I am open to learning new things.  It makes my life much easier.  Mtn Meek, thanks for posting.  Chris

Offline Hlbly

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
Re: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2019, 12:38:06 AM »
Wonder where Leman got his Tig welder to put the pan on the percussion plate?

Offline Hlbly

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
Re: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2019, 12:46:40 AM »
On the last lock picture, look at the fresh drag marks on the barrel flat from the frizzen being opened. Should we see that on an original flint gun?

Online rich pierce

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12061
Re: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2019, 12:50:57 AM »
Wonder where Leman got his Tig welder to put the pan on the percussion plate?

Could have bolted it on like Germanic flintlocks. We are all guessing here. Some offer ideas and others offer definitive conclusions. Itís often hard to be conclusive without an in hand exam and a secret video encompassing the life of the gun from its origin. Those are mighty scarce.
St. Louis, Missouri

Offline Hlbly

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
Re: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2019, 12:56:41 AM »
They are obviously not bolted on.

Offline cshirsch

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
Re: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2019, 01:33:16 AM »
We try to post photos to help us learn about new and different things.  In vain.  Too bad.

Offline Mtn Meek

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 217
    • GRRW Collector
Re: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2019, 01:48:07 AM »
I suspect the Leman workers put the fence, pan, and frizzen bridle on the lock plate the same way the Birmingham lock makers were doing it on their locks.

In 1852, the Ewing brothers ordered a number of Indian rifles from Henry Leman in both flint and percussion.  In filling the order, Leman wrote to explain that some of the rifles he shipped had "full skeleton [water-proof] Locks, the most expensive, which I was at last obliged to use.  And I mention this so that it cannot be expected hereafter to find them on the Rifles."  (James A. Hanson, Firearms of the Fur Trade, pages 375-6)

I don't think these were the same locks that are dated 1840, but it does show that Leman was making rifles with this same style of lock as late as 1852.
Phil Meek

westbj2

  • Guest
Re: Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2019, 04:43:56 AM »
On page 14 of RL Wilson's book "Peacemakers" a Leman Lancaster 1840 rifle is shown.  About a year before this book came out, a customer brought in a pair of Leman rifles that were mates to the illustrated rifle.  These rifles were made to a pattern, one being about an inch longer than the other.  Their condition was so outstanding that I was concerned that they may be the handiwork of someone from back in the 1950's.  I asked the owner if I could take the locks off and look inside.  He said go ahead.  Inside of lock and mortise were dirty in the right places and light traces of rust on the metal. In about 1 minute, I satisfied myself that the guns were ligit and real.  Ended up buying the guns and in turn they went as a pair to a Colorado collector.  This would have been about 1995.'
Owner told me that the family was from Pennsylvania and brought them along when they moved to Minnesota about 1890.  I always assumed that the picture in Wilson's book was likely a picture of one of the above rifles. I don't believe they had ever been fired .
Jim Westberg