Author Topic: Building Hawkens  (Read 4975 times)

Offline Herb

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Building Hawkens
« on: July 23, 2016, 06:55:08 AM »
Over New Years I helped my friend Bob do most of the basic construction of a Track of the Wolf Kit Carson Hawken, which it resembles not.  Since then I have begun two Carson rifles from the blank, and am building a friend's TOW Jim Bridger Hawken, which stock resembles the original but little.  He wants it exact to the original, and I have to modify Track's stock considerably to make it work.  The tang is bent down 1/2" too much at the tail, requiring acetylene heat to bend the hump out of it.  I also cut the lock plate for the snail.


Then yesterday along comes friend Everett, a Ute Indian, for  whom I built his Log Cabin Hawken rifle parts into a rifle (with which he killed an elk  last fall), with a TOW Bridger Hawken parts set, wanting help to put it together. He had Track fit the breech plug.  I gave him basic help in two hours time.  Began the fit of the tang to the breech plug, showing him how to do it,  ground the casting gate off the tang, showed him the 1/2" too much drop at the tang to the wrist inlet, telling him how to heat and bend the tang.  He has a torch and can do this.  Discussed inletting the tang and the barrel.  Told him how to drill the holes to rivet the underrib to the barrel, and solder the half-moon at the end of the rib.  Cut his 1 1/8 x 1" 36" .58 Colerain barrel to the 34" he wanted, 10 minutes with a hacksaw and then 5 of filing out the saw marks, he to finish it.  Showed him how to file the butt plate back to look like the Bridger and Carson buttplates.  He had the lock inletted exactly, showed him how to cut out for the breech plug snail.  And how the lock bolster has to be filed off .070 at the back end in a straight taper from the front to follow the panel of the stock to the wrist, and then the lock tail inletted deeper.  He had the trigger plate inletted perfectly, showed him how the front end needed bent out to fit the stock.  And to install the screw at the tail of the trigger plate.  And how to locate the hole for the trigger guard to be screwed into the plate.  How the TG has to be bent so the stud fits the plate at right angles.  How to install the rear TG loop screw.  And the triggers may need shortening a little.  How to fit and solder the pipes to the underrib.  How the pipes are drilled out a little to allow a 7/16" rod tip to pass easily  through them.  Checked the Davis triggers, which don't stay cocked.  The little shelf of the rear trigger has to be filed at a deeper angle for the front trigger to stay cocked.  How to draw file the barrel.  He did not like the short nose cap, I told him it is shorter than the original (which Muzzleloader Builder Supply has), but it will work unless he wants it to look like the original.  Also, the entry pipe is the wrong one (Track has the correct one in their catalog), not necessary to change it unless he wants it to look like the original.  I think the length of pull will be about 14 1/4" (the original was 13 1/4"), but he is big and this should be OK with him.  He has drills and taps and dies and can do this work.  

THEN he brings out a TOW Kit Carson parts set and I showed him a full size photo enlargement of the Carson rifle against the TOW Carson plan, which he also has.  Showed him that 14 5/8" LOP, which if too long for him, he'll have to cut off.  We left that one for later.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 07:07:03 AM by Herb »
Herb

Offline PPatch

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Re: Building Hawkens
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2016, 02:40:16 PM »
Hi Herb;

Sounds like you are quite busy introducing the younger set to gun making, good on you! Question;

"... and solder the half-moon at the end of the rib."

What is your technique for doing this? I would be interested to know.

Cheers

dave
Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Offline SingleMalt

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Re: Building Hawkens
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2016, 03:11:08 PM »
Good job introducing gun building to others.  I've described it as solving multiple small problems before they become big problems. The word "kit" is a relative term.
Never drink whisky that isn't old enough to vote.

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Offline Herb

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Re: Building Hawkens
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2016, 05:01:32 PM »
PPatch, Everett is in his 60's in age.  I use a 3/8" chain saw file to file a crescent out of the top end of the rib.  Then with  my Dremel tool I drill some shallow holes in it so the solder is locked in.   You could just raise a few spurs with a chisel.  Degrease the end of the rib.   I clamp the rib flat against a piece of steel which I have chalked over so the solder won't stick to it.  Hold it vertically in a vise, heat the area and melt solder into it.  Plumbing solder works fine, it is just a filler.  When it cools down, I file it flat on top and smooth out the end.  I think the originals must have been hollow, thus the fill was used to close the end.  At least one rib was lipped.  I have used the lipped ribs from Muzzleloader Builder Supply, but like a flat one better.  The "Roubidoux" Hawken has the front screw or rivet missing, with a 1/8" hole, but the rib is tight.  It may be that Hawken soldered the end of the rib to the barrel, but I don't know that.
Herb

Offline Billy Mike

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Re: Building Hawkens
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2016, 02:05:35 AM »
Herb, I wonder if you could post a few pics of the half moon in process?

Offline Herb

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Re: Building Hawkens
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2016, 06:16:52 AM »
OK, be a while before I get to it, but I can do that.
Herb

Offline PPatch

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Re: Building Hawkens
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2016, 03:59:15 PM »
Thank you for the info Herb. I am working with one of those MBS hollow ribs.

What I did was shape a couple of aluminum "plugs" out of tightly compacted tinfoil into the inner contour of the rib to act as solder dams. I then filled the half inch area in between the plugs with solder using your chalk trick as a solder resist. Kinda jury rigged but it worked just fine. I did go over the inside of the soldering area with a graver to knock up some metal, she isn't coming off, or out.

Thanks again.

dave
Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Building Hawkens
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2016, 04:35:16 AM »
I have a great gob of some grease like substance that was mixed with asbestos.  It was used years ago for casting babbit bearings for machinery in a pulp mill near my town (2 hrs. north.)  A millwright friend who worked at the mill scored it for me.  It is useful for making the little dams that stop solder or nose cap pewter from flowing where you don't want it.  I've been using it for the last thirty-five or so years.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Building Hawkens
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2016, 06:24:57 AM »
Taylor, the grease like substance, what ever it is, has it ever run when the heat is applied and caused any problems for you with the solder not adhering to a grease spot?

Offline KNeilson

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Re: Building Hawkens
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2016, 07:13:07 AM »
Quote
I have a great gob of some grease like substance that was mixed with asbestos
Its called Babbitrite, and is a commercial damming product for people that work with lead or metals with a similar (LOW) melting temp. They claim there is no harmfull ingredients in the makeup...(re: asbestos) Ive used it lots for its intended purpose and its wonderful stuff for plugging holes where you don't want your alloy to pass. An industrial supply should have some...

Quote
has it ever run when the heat is applied and caused any problems for you with the solder not adhering
When it is hot its "sweats" a bit on the surface. some type of oil in the mix. I have seen this weep into wood that is part of the damming material. Re its use for nosecaps or where the babbit is cast into wood, Id be more concerned about a finish not taking (to the wood) than the pewter or lead not flowing properly. However, I have used it for this purpose, but only once with excellent results...

 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 07:25:42 AM by KNeilson »

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Building Hawkens
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2016, 07:55:32 PM »
Kerry:  that is great news.  I have never known what it was called or from what it was constructed.  I acquired mine, as I said, from a friend who worked in a saw mill in the 70's and my description is simply a quote of what he told me.  In casting a nose piece, I get as much 'sweat' from the masking tape that provides the first dam as I do from the babbit casting stuff.  And I've never had an issue with the 'sweat' interfering with stain or finish.  When I worked for Robinson making his Hawken rifles, we used this stuff to cast roughly two hundred nose caps, and it is easy to use and produces excellent results.  I expect I've done another two dozen in my own shop as well.  A little goes an incredible long way, and it is re-useable...very little is lost in the making of a cap.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.