Author Topic: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?  (Read 33482 times)

Online Bob Roller

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2016, 12:45:45 PM »
.36 - 100 to the pound, would take 110 (or so) to the pound ball.

Chuck - bit of difference between 18, 147gr. FMJ .356" conicals (or however many Phil had to fire), and a single 65 to 68gr. round ball of pure lead.  In the second instance I have observed (post mortum) how 9, .32" round balls  of 3% antimony content, fail to make the lungs of a black bear, shot broadside at 15  to 20 foot range - cylinder bore gun, so there was some 8 to 10" or more spread of the "00 Buck Shot.  They stopped in the fat, muscle and on the ribs - really made that bear angry - it happened to be a full grown adult, a 6 footer, not a 150pound 3 yr,. old cub.  I do not know if a single 15 grain heavier ball would have been any more decisive.  It took another load of the same 00 buck shot at a range of 6 feet, delivered to the side of it's head - THAT worked a treat, although that fellow, a member of my riot squad probably needed a change of shorts.


Elmer Keith told about a fellow that used a 9x19 Luger to kill moose with a head shot.It was the only gun he had
and he knew how to place a shot.A 36 caliber round lead ball on anything bigger than a raccoon is taking a chance IMHO.
Also,using any inadequate load on any animal is a cruelty.IF I were to hunt deer again with a muzzle loader loaded with
a round ball it would be 50 caliber minimum.A 36 is a fun gun to plink with be it a pistol or a rifle but if you hunt with it
or any other round ball gun be sure it's up to the job of a one shot kill out of respect for the critter you're hunting.

Bob Roller

Joe S

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2016, 03:57:16 AM »
Well Daryl, if you insist on taking long range shots like 15-20 feet, you shouldn’t be surprised when you get poor bullet performance.  Do like Phil does, and shoot at 2 or 3 feet.  He says he shot the bear 6 times, but who knows.  I’ve never been impressed with Phil’s math.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 03:58:34 AM by Chuck Walla »

JoeG

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2016, 06:19:16 AM »
I saw an old original 2 cavity .36 mold in SW Virginia . One cavity molded a .36 round ball
the other molded an almost football shaped bullet that weighted the same as a .40 cal round ball.

The only thing I could guess was that someone wanted a heavier bullet for bigger game

Offline Daryl

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2016, 07:45:48 PM »
I saw an old original 2 cavity .36 mold in SW Virginia . One cavity molded a .36 round ball
the other molded an almost football shaped bullet that weighted the same as a .40 cal round ball.

The only thing I could guess was that someone wanted a heavier bullet for bigger game

Similar old moulds were meant for the cap and ball revolvers. One cavity a round ball, while the other cast a conical.
In the instance above, the conical seems to be a sugar loaf or picket bullet.
Daryl

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Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2016, 05:22:43 AM »
Well said Mr. Roller. Mine is used for tree rats, raccoons an coyotes out to 50 yards. Elmer Keith claimed killing an elk at 600 with a handgun 4 inch barrel. Wished I could have seen that.................



Offline little joe

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2016, 04:27:05 PM »
What does .357 and .440 Mag,s have to do with a .36 cal muzzleloader?

Online Bob Roller

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2016, 04:31:36 PM »
What does .357 and .440 Mag,s have to do with a .36 cal muzzleloader?

Ask the guy that wants to use an inadequate caliber to hunt larger game with.
Also read the follow up from Oldtraveler61.
Bob Roller

Offline little joe

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2016, 04:44:20 PM »
It would seem to me if we want to discuss 30.06- .243- .270,s rifles and.357  ect. pistols we should be on a board that deals with that and not  on American Longrifles and the Black Powder shooting thread.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2016, 06:29:59 PM »
Evidently many of our members keep forgetting that ALR has rules that restricts all discussions in all our forums to side lock muzzleloaders only. Please refrain from making comments to modern arms. We have nothing against modern arms but we wish to keep ALR focused on traditional sidelock muzzleloaders.

In case you have not read the ALR rules here is a link to both the Mission Statement and our rules/policy's  :
 Our Mission Statement http://americanlongrifles.org/?action=recent

 Our Rules and Policy's http://americanlongrifles.org/american-longrifles-privacy-policy-2.htm?action=recent

Thanks for your cooperation.
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« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 06:42:01 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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Joe S

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2016, 03:37:09 AM »
Mea culpa.  For some of us, as we age our brains seem to soften…

To answer the question “Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?"

I don’t know of any data that would suggest that was ever widely true. No doubt there were folks who had only a .36 caliber gun, and shot everything with it.  Then, as now, they would have had good results on small game, and marginal or worse results on larger game.  Big animals can be killed with small bullets, but it’s less than ideal.

We do have a lot of pretty good data on the caliber of a “typical” long rifle.  Last time I looked into this topic, I calculated an average for the 100 or so guns I could find calibers for.  As I recall, the average was .42 caliber.  Other references commonly peg the figure for typical late 1700’s – early 1800’s long rifles in the .40 - .45 caliber range.  Prior to that time, and later in the west, .50 caliber and up was more common.

An all around caliber depends a lot on what you value.  If the cost of powder and ball matter a lot, then you would go with the smallest caliber that is adequate for your largest game.  If you hunt everything from squirrels to deer, that puts the optimal caliber in the .40 to .45 caliber range.  .45 is a little big for squirrels, but they can be barked, head shot or shot with reduced loads. 

If your usual targets were elk, buffalo and Indians, .50 and up would be much better.

C. Cash

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2016, 05:29:05 AM »
While doing family and historical research in East Tennessee, I've seen numerous mentions of the men taking their "squirrel rifles" to War be it with the Natives or during the Mexican War.  So, to me that suggests two things; these squirrel rifles were their main go to rifles and they were probably in the light calibers we are talking about.

Offline wmrike

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2016, 04:30:02 PM »
Years ago I cataloged all the rifle calibers I could find (Kindig, Shumway, Roberts, etc).  Something like 350 rifles went into the mix.  The average was 0.49, representing mostly Golden Age pieces, but some earlier and some later.  A casual takeaway might be that in the 1790-1810 timeframe, 0.50 was the norm, as was self defense and big game.  Earlier guns were bigger and later guns got pretty small.

Joe S

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2016, 05:14:46 PM »
It would be interesting to go back and analyze caliber by 10 year period.  There's plenty of data so we wouldn't need to speculate.  A good winter project for someone.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2016, 07:58:05 PM »
I have noticed that .45 is big for an eastern gun post 1800. I'm sure there were lots of deer killed with .36 ish guns back in the day. I've been working with a .36 and have no doubt it would be lethal with a well placed shot. I have seen large deer killed with much smaller modern rimfire calibers.
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2016, 08:06:46 PM »
If one peruses the pages of "Firearms of the American West 1803-1865" one will find reference, indeed, re-prints of gun and paraphernalia orders to the Rifle makers in the East, from hunters and travelers as well as stores in the West.
Mentioned in these are many orders for barrels 3' to 4' - gun weights usually 10 to 12 pounds and 'taking' ball sizes from 32 to 180. Thus, many orders for rifles from 54 cal. down to as small as 28 cal.  Now, what were the most?  I seem to recall higher numbers in the 40 to 60 to the pound sizes, thus approx. .50" down to about 44 cal. as most common, although there were many orders for guns in the 100 to the pound range, which would be 37 to 38 cal.

ball diameters - # per pound = inches:
180 = .296"
100 = .360"
60   = .427"
40   = .488
32   = .526"

So, to answer the question was .36 ever used as an all round gun? That is certainly most likely. Recommended today as an all round rifle calibre? - NO! Can killing big game with what amounts to a squirrel rifle be accomplished - most assuredly. Many people today would call that a stunt - or a trick, just as people and most poachers around the world today continue to use inadequate guns on big game - including moose with RF's right here in B.C. Can it be done - yes - but many are lost wounded, for every one brought to bag.

Is it Ethical to use a .36 as an all round rifle should perhaps be the question.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 08:14:41 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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vulture

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2016, 04:33:25 AM »
It was always my understanding that the smaller calibers rifles, like .36,.40, 44, etc. were all that was needed for most hunting along the East coast and on into the Eastern frontier, but once trappers started coming up against large thick hided and heavy muscled animals like the buffalo, elk, and grizzly bear they needed something with more knock down power, thus the .50, .54, and larger were more popular out West.  Just because someone wrote such information in some magazine doesn't mean that it was necessarily true, but it does make sense.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2016, 10:56:01 PM »
I think we need to take into account what would have been seen as being most useful  [ calibre wise ]in terms of having a rifle at a given time in history.  My wife's great Grandfather's "deer rifle" was a single shot .32 RF long.
For most, I would assume that having multiple rifles/guns allocated to various types of game would not have been the norm. If I had a .36 or .40 as my rifle, would I use it to take a deer once a year or so....absolutely.
The rest of the time it would take smaller game and the varmints encountered in a farm environment

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2016, 07:54:24 PM »
Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?

Yes, in Scandinavia, I believe. Small caliber snaplocks were used to hunt both capercaillie (a type of big grouse) and elk (European Elk, Alces alces alces, what we would call a moose). Capercaillie were taken using headshots, while the elk were shot at very close range while being driven by dogs through prepared stands.

Maybe in Alaska by Russian/siberian fur hunters using similar snaplocks. Not much available on Russian guns, at least in this country.


As for the American frontier, which is what I suspect you were referring to, while I can't say that it was never done, I doubt it was done by choice. I can't recall any evidence for sub-.40 calibers prior to 1800 and the near eradication of big game in the east (and remember that buffalo, elk, and moose lived east of the Mississippi in the 18th century) and I think that the pioneers were a lot less concerned with economy of lead and powder than popular imagination would have it. (Not that it wasn't a factor, but it wasn't an overriding concern. I can't remember if it is Isaac Weld or Doddridge that remarks that some folks wanted a smaller bore (.40-something) for economy while others wanted a bigger bore for power).

It is my impression that earlier generations, including those of the early modern eras, do seem to have been happy with calibers and cartridges that modern generations would consider underpowered. This might be due to the fact that practices such as running deer with hounds and jacklighting game were accepted and normal methods of hunting prior to the development of the modern hunting ethos at the end of the 19th century, and the gradual adoption of bigger calibers is due to the desire for a sure kill under modern hunting conditions. Another, more cynical, explanation for the increasing power of hunting guns might be that gun and ammo companies need to be push their latest and greatest new products on an increasingly urban hunting population, and in practice that means increasingly more powerful and efficient ammo, whereas a small, low-powered weapons places a premium on individual skills which aren't easily commercialized nor all that common these days - we traditionalists aren't directly affected by what mainstream hunting population is doing, but we aren't necessarily immune to it either...

I'm kind of toying with the idea of trying to sell or trade off my extra .54 barrel in favor a .40 or .45. I kind of like the idea of an economical little bore suitable for both our itty-bitty local whitetail and small game...
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline Daryl

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2016, 10:09:44 PM »
Checking, of course, the local game laws on calibre size vs. animal to be hunted.

I have a .36 for the squirrel match at Hefley Creek Rendezvous.  Only .40 calibre and under are allowed.  A fun shoot and the targets are all squirrels. Unfortunately this year is was pouring rain and I already had a cold starting - I bagged out, and of course, the cold is still getting worse.
Daryl

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Davo

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2016, 05:06:12 AM »
I have 14 1810-1850 originals. Ten of them are in the 36-38cal. range.

Does anybody still make .38 barrels nowadays?

Try Chas. Burton
.38 uses same ball as .36 Navy revolver, Ball wt. 80 gr.
Davo

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2016, 05:29:27 AM »
A .36 would only be legal here in Colorado for small game. As it should be.

Offline little joe

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2016, 06:14:44 AM »
I have 14 1810-1850 originals. Ten of them are in the 36-38cal. range.

Does anybody still make .38 barrels nowadays?

Try Chas. Burton
.38 uses same ball as .36 Navy revolver, Ball wt. 80 gr.
Davo

I have a Burton .38 cal and I like it very well.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 05:02:17 PM by Ky-Flinter »

Offline TMerkley

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2016, 05:25:29 PM »
Well, if you can kill a brown bear with a 9mm, I don't see why you couldn't kill a black bear with a .36.

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2016/8/10/alaska-outfitter-defends-fishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol

A 9MM is essentially the same diameter bullet as the 38 Special and the .357 Mag.  They are interchangeable when reloading cartridges.  I used a 3/8ths drill bit as a mandrel to open up a collapsed chamber on an 1856 Eli Whitney.  The chamber had been collapsed by being dropped. My cousin sold that pistol on Pawn Stars a couple of years ago.  If you want to look at it, pull up the video.   

The 36 was a pretty standard caliber among the southerners during the civil war.  I am pretty sure it was to conserve Lead.  Just a thought 

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #48 on: December 27, 2016, 05:29:25 PM »
A .36 caliber muzzleloader is legal for deer and black bear in Tennessee.  I might take a shot at a deer standing broadside 30 or 40 yards away, but the .36 seems a little light for bear, to me.........robin   8)

It's legal for ALL big game in Tennessee except the one with feathers.  You forgot Elk (yeah, those 5 or 6 tags) and Boar, but of course, ~97.8% of big game in TN is white-tailus-flaggus-and-runnus. 

Not that it's wise for any big game, but that it's legal and I like the ability to make my own decisions rather than a politico, so I don't fuss about it.

My fuss is that I think it's PERFECT for popping a Turkey.  But nooooo, we can't shoot turkeys with anything but a stupor-magnum shotgun.  Not legally. not yet.

I yet hold that a small caliber/modest velocity rifle, smokey or smokeless is a valid and safe enough weapon for turkeys on private lands-Spring or Fall.  But Fall mostly. Turkeys are thick as ticks everywhere now.

« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 11:38:27 PM by WadePatton »
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Offline TMerkley

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Re: Was .36 ever used as an all around caliber?
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2016, 05:34:04 PM »
A .36 caliber muzzleloader is legal for deer and black bear in Tennessee.  I might take a shot at a deer standing broadside 30 or 40 yards away, but the .36 seems a little light for bear, to me.........robin   8)

It's legal for ALL big game in Tennessee except the one with feathers.  You forgot Elk (yeah, those 5 or 6 tags) and Boar.  Not that it's wise for any big game, but that it's legal and I like the ability to make my own decisions rather than a politico, so I don't fuss about it.

My fuss is that I think it's PERFECT for popping a Turkey.  But nooooo, we can't shoot turkeys with anything but a stupor-magnum shotgun.  Not legally. 

I yet hold that a small caliber/modest velocity rifle, smokey or smokeless is a valid and safe enough weapon for turkeys on private lands-Spring or Fall.  But Fall mostly. Turkeys are thick as ticks everywhere now.

I agree on the Turkey,  I would think that shooting a Turkey with a muzzleloader would be safer that hunting with a shotgun.  .40 cal and below to .25