Author Topic: Original pouch questions  (Read 6379 times)

Offline conquerordie

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Original pouch questions
« on: September 19, 2016, 10:38:19 PM »
I know that originals are far and few, but is there any documentation for pouches with the knife sheath attached? In interested in the18th century , not so much 19th century versions. I guess that goes for a hatchet as well. I'm going to be making a setup for hunting, I want to add these features, and probably will. Just curious if any documentation supports it. Thanks,
Greg

Offline JW

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Re: Original pouch questions
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2016, 11:37:12 PM »
I think it’s safe to say that there is no definitive evidence that points to this being a common practice or any definitive examples of this practice in the 18th century.  If you were doing living history, the safe practice would be to keep the “shot pouch” (period term) simple and leave the knife and axe/tomahawk on a simple belt around the waist or the axe in a baldric-like shoulder carriage.  However, I believe there is some non-definitive evidence for this. Without digging too deeply, there is the quote from the journal of Phillip Slaughter of the Culpepper Minute Battalion, “Each man had a leather belt around his shoulders, with a tomahawk and scalping knife.” One might interpret various ways but you might interpret that as the scalper and tomahawk hanging from the pouch strap I suppose.  There is also the period image showing the various American soldiers at Yorktown. The rifleman’s tomahawk looks like it could be hanging from his shot pouch. 

Long story short, I don’t think it’s a stretch and when I’m hunting (and not doing living history), I like my hunting knife tied to the pouch strap at the end, up against my body and the pouch, just below the horn.  I’ve seen quite a few small axes attached to pouches as well. Never done that personally and I don’t really like the “bat belt” mentality for 18th century stuff, but I’m sure it works just fine.

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Original pouch questions
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2016, 12:17:46 AM »
 Get a copy of Madison Grant's The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch and I think you will see your answer.

  Tim C.

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Original pouch questions
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2016, 05:53:28 AM »
Actually was thinking about this earlier today  :o

I recall many years ago reading a period account describing a fight between the narrator, a frontiersman, and an Indian, in which the two eventually ended up wrestling each other for control of a knife that hung off the shooting pouch belonging to one of the participants. The person who posted the account pointed out that the fight would have taken place in the early 1790s, and thus was the earliest description of a knife mounted on a pouch. Unfortunately, I cannot recall the details or whose narrative it was, so you might want to treat that as hearsay. Might be worth tracking down, though.

Audubon's famous description of loading a flintlock, c.1810, sounds like it involved a knife attached to the shooting bag:

"… He blows through his rifle to ascertain that it is clear, examines his flint, and thrusts a feather into the touch-hole. To a leathern bag swung at his side is attached a powder-horn; his sheath-knife is there also; below hangs a narrow strip of homespun linen. He takes from his bag a bullet, pulls with his teeth the wooden stopper from his powder-horn, lays the ball in one hand, and with the other pours the powder upon it until it is just overtopped. Raising the horn to his mouth, he again closes it with the stopper, and restores it to its place. He introduces the powder into the tube; springs the box of his gun, greases the "patch" over with some melted tallow, or damps it; then places it on the honey-combed muzzle of his piece. The bullet is placed on the patch over the bore, and pressed with the handle of the knife, which now trims the edge of the linen. The elastic hickory rod, held with both hands, smoothly pushes the ball to its bed; once, twice, thrice has it rebounded. The rifle leaps as it were into the hunters arms, the feather is drawn from the touch-hole, the powder fills the pan, which is closed. “Now I’m ready,” cries the woodsman….

I think you could make a decent case for an attached knife sheath for at least the last decade of the 18th century, and I personally wouldn't consider it out of line if you wanted to include it as a speculative detail for a kit a decade or so earlier...

Having said that, a couple observations. First, I'd imagine that any knife attached to a pouch would be a big butcher type knife, not a small fixed-blade utility or "patch knife". There isn't much evidence for handmade or blacksmith-made knives being at all common along the frontier prior to 1800, whereas it appears that virtually everyone used a trade knife of some sort. I have yet to run across an example of a trade knife with a fixed blade much under five inches (if anyone knows of such a thing, I'd love to hear about it). The need for small blades seems to have been filled by various grades of folding knives, which need no sheath.

Second, a sheath attached to a pouch means that the knife is only handy if you are wearing the pouch at the time. That isn't a problem if you are out in the woods, but if you are working around the farm (i.e., most of your waking hours as a frontier farmer) you aren't going to be wearing the pouch all the time, which means that your knife is inaccessible if you need it for a quick chore. I use a utility knife all the time at work, and while it is supposed to be carried in my tool pouch, in practice I tend to leave the tool pouch in one place (cause it is awkward to carry all the time) and and either slip the razor knife into my pocket or just use my Opinel rather than go find my tool pouch when I need to cut something. I suspect that the knife most used (possibly that folding knife!) would inevitably end up carried on one's person, and any knife on the pouch would be either reserved for specific uses (weapon or dedicated hunting knife) or as a backup to one's favorite knife. In other words, while an all-in-one rig makes sense for us today, allowing us to don or shed the 18th century in a single movement, it seems rather impractical for an actual 18th century homesteader, so I suspect that the practice was not common.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 05:55:25 AM by Elnathan »
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Offline skillman

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Re: Original pouch questions
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2016, 05:59:39 AM »
One thing to remember about bags, horns, knives, guns, etc. These were tools. As Jim Webb points out in his book, modifications, repairs, and additions were often made in the life of these items. Even if you have an original, you cannot be 100% certain how it looked when first made. Sometimes I think we get carried away with our obsession with period correctness in our accoutrements.

Steve
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Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Original pouch questions
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2016, 02:47:58 PM »
If you accept the missing Boone pouch as 18th century...then yes, a big knife sheath was attached to the back of the pouch...
tc
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Offline conquerordie

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Re: Original pouch questions
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2016, 03:21:22 PM »
 My only knife is a English trade knife. I'm thinking attaching it to the back. Like I said, if I was doing a portrayal for the public, then I'd probably stick with it shoved in my belt. This setup is just for me to shoot with and have fun. I might just keep the knife in the bag and attach my hawk to the outside. Decisions decisions.
Greg

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Original pouch questions
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2016, 05:07:18 PM »
Perhaps relevant is this 1815 letter written by a Dr. arriving at Kittanning in western PA giving a tongue in cheek description of the frontier settlers there.  Note the last few lines.  Perhaps they put knives on pouches in the 1700s but I think most guys carried them on their belt where they were always accessable.

1815 Dr. Maltis Ward upon arrival at Kittanning

“Having given this general sketch of the land I ought to describe
its tenants. This is a very difficult & disagreeable task. Two thirds are
Germans, of the remainder more than ½  are Irish. Speaking generally I would
say the leading attributes of their character are, laziness,
intemperance, ignorance, and knavery. They are the worst husbandmen I ever
saw. Their language a curious jargon of Dutch, Irish &
corrupt English with much vulgar profanity intermingled. As for religion,
I must allow them the praise of not having hypocrisy enough to
pretend to have any. They dress principally in rifle frocks curriously
fringed & not  inelegant. Many never had a straight bodied coat in
their lives. They are extremely fond of hunting. A backwoodsman sets   
as much by his rifle as an Arabian does by his steed, some of them
[are] elegant. A smooth barrel is seldom seen, and "shot gun" is a
common expression of contempt for a poor rifle. Instead of going to
the woods with an  axe on his shoulder he may be seen 5 or 6 days
every week attended by 2 or 3 ugly dogs, having
in hand old rifle gun,
with buckskin'd moccasins and cap of fox,
Fring'd hunting shirt, long knife & tomahawk  tied on
and pouch and horn at side etc"
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 08:03:09 PM by Ky-Flinter »
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Offline conquerordie

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Re: Original pouch questions
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2016, 12:07:01 AM »
I agree most common practice would be to tie or just shove in your belt. I guess my setup will be of the fantasy variety, like a fantasy rifle.

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Original pouch questions
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2016, 12:22:04 AM »
having
in hand old rifle gun,
with buckskin'd moccasins and cap of fox,
Fring'd hunting shirt, long knife & tomahawk  tied on
and pouch and horn at side etc"


Sorry, I don't see that as describing anything but a knife and tomahawk in a belt.


Conquerordie,
I don't think that having a knife sheath on the bag is fantasy, just probably uncommon in your period. It isn't like we have an abundance of proven 18th century originals to go by. As for attaching a 'hawk, that might cross over the line into fantasy - I don't know of any historic examples of any period, though small axes aren't all that uncommon. I have to say that my experience trying to use one of these small axes (4 ounce head on a 14 inch handle) to split wood in camp is that anything worth taking into the woods is too big to fit on a bag.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline heelerau

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Re: Original pouch questions
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2016, 02:09:45 AM »
I wonder, you blokes out hunting in the woods,  you would find,  by  constant use the most comfortable and practical way to carry a knife and tomahawk etc , now that might vary from person to person depending on circumstance.  I am thinking that howsoever the woodsman of the period carried their gear would have been determined by what they were doing, what I am trying to say is that today how you blokes carry your accoutrements may be not much different to the 18th/19th century.  Similar conditions breed similar answers.

Cheers
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Re: Original pouch questions
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2016, 03:53:37 AM »
An expert by no means..........a soldier for life. I would say no frontiersman would ever be in the woods or on the trail without a blade on his belt. That said I'm not sure of the "patch" knife. If I were a colonial woodsman and without wealth I'm not sure I would own one or maybe have one as a back up.  Good original question that provokes thought.

OldJoe

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Re: Original pouch questions
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2016, 11:42:57 PM »
One thing to consider, those guys weren’t that much different than us.  If some of us think it’s convenient to have a small patch knife on our bag strap, I’m sure some of them had the same idea.  If you make something that works for you and it isn’t obviously modern (a lock-back Buck knife in stainless steel , for example) then go with it.  Depending on you view of life, you might be repeating something from a previous life.

Offline Sequatchie Rifle

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Re: Original pouch questions
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2016, 06:32:04 PM »
Think practical application. The large knife most likely was carried on his belt so it was available when his rifle was not. I've carried sheath knives in combat and always secured them to my waist belt so I still have it if I had to run and abandon my other gear. These pioneers were above all things- practical. Why carry a large knife on a shooting pouch? It just isn't practical or make sense. Once conditions were less dangerous, then I'm sure folks got a little more relaxed. Just my take on the question. I've read about everything I could get my hands on about the folks living in SW VA and east TN in the early days.
Respectfully, BWF
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 10:26:52 PM by Ky-Flinter »
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Offline PPatch

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Re: Original pouch questions
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2016, 01:37:36 AM »
If a man owned one knife that was in regular daily use I would imagine the most handy place for it would be on his belt.

dave
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Offline conquerordie

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Re: Original pouch questions
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2016, 10:50:18 PM »
I appreciate everyone's comments. My original comment was if knives or even tomahawks were attached to original pieces. Seems like there is some originals that went this route. So I will too! Historically, I believe just because a person had a knife on his bag, doesn't mean he didn't have another in his belt. I've carried three knives on occasion in 18th century forays into the woods. This is just a rig for shooting and hunting. Just gonna have some fun with it.
Greg
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 10:51:41 PM by conquerordie »