Author Topic: RCA 19  (Read 26610 times)

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: RCA 19
« Reply #75 on: October 04, 2016, 05:14:33 PM »
Aaaaah, the days of perpetual and vigorous debate!  We just need more things to argue about.

Of course I get my fill here now with my older daughter when she's home from school on weekends….
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: RCA 19
« Reply #76 on: October 04, 2016, 05:18:02 PM »
Maybe we should discuss chainsaws (I'm a husky guy) or maybe glock vs. pretty much everything else, or hahahahahaha sorry I couldn't help myself.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline tallbear

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Re: RCA 19
« Reply #77 on: October 04, 2016, 05:18:59 PM »
Sorry I'm late to the party don't know how I missed this.Hopefully this link works and can add to the disscussion.

Albrecht PDF   https://1drv.ms/b/s!AlDaoXr-AqBaiwIiYotPPZQh4n6g


Mitch Yates

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: RCA 19
« Reply #78 on: October 04, 2016, 05:47:54 PM »
I wasn't aware that I was doing so many things incorrectly, and held so many wrong opinions, until my kids enlightened me of the errors of my ways.  Naturally, they expect that I pay them for this advise  ;D

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: RCA 19
« Reply #79 on: October 04, 2016, 05:48:35 PM »
Yep, that's the booklet that was put out a couple of years back iirc.

I think most of the 'debate' surrounding the two pieces is going to revolve around the attribution of maker and attribution of maker/owner for #19.  Most if not all who have either viewed the two pieces first hand or viewed photos of them (there are better photos 'floating around' as Alex here has noted) will fairly quickly conclude the two pieces are definitely related.  I would be surprised of anyone tried to argue that case.  the remainder of the hypothesis flows from the markings atop the barrel of the short rifle.  The problem here is that it has been heavily corroded and cleaned, and the markings are extremely difficult to make out.  So one has to make somewhat of a leap of faith to interpret the marking as indicating Albrecht.

I know that there are technologies that could very likely render the signature more readable without damaging the barrel.  I have not researched the variable options extensively because I personally have not as yet needed them, but I know there definitely are options which could examine the disruption of the metal following engraving which would very likely improve the likelihood of an accurate interpretation.  Perhaps some metallurgists out there may chime in?

I'd be willing to kick in some $$$.  I think it's important enough to want to really ascertain this for certain.  If the signature could *conclusively* indicate Albrecht, the Paxinosa theory for #19 becomes a whole lot more believable if not provable.

One question which might arise is, if the short rifle can be proved to be old AA, why sign that and not #19?  Especially given that the natives early on could be considered a primary customer.  Probably a question that can never be answered.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: RCA 19
« Reply #80 on: October 04, 2016, 05:49:13 PM »
Hey Bob in the woods, I guess you must get a weekly "bill" too?  ;D
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline spgordon

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Re: RCA 19
« Reply #81 on: October 04, 2016, 06:09:10 PM »
One question which might arise is, if the short rifle can be proved to be old AA, why sign that and not #19?  Especially given that the natives early on could be considered a primary customer.  Probably a question that can never be answered.

This is a great question--and I'd love to hear a discussion about why researchers think craftsmen signed the barrels (or locks) or whatever generally. I wrote before that, at least in part, a signature served to indicate who was responsible for the work in case something went wrong. Sometimes such signatures or other marks were required in later contracts. So in these cases, the signature doesn't indicate anything about pride in craftsmanship: it's required by external authorities so faults can be traced back to the makers.

It is often said that the lack of signatures on Moravian arms stems from the fact that these arms were built in a communal economy. In my opinion, there is no evidence for this claim. Most hand-made stuff wasn't signed in early America--furniture, for instance, or paintings--and these other craftsmen weren't working in communal economies. There is no evidence that Moravian practice changed after 1762 (when the communal economy changed in Bethlehem) or 1771 (when it changed, sort of, at Christiansbrunn). The Moravian painter John Valentine Haidt didn't sign his history paintings or his portraits before 1762 and he didn't start signing them afterwards (he died in 1780).

The pamphlet to which there is a link above states as fact that signatures were "prohibited" due to the communal economy: again, no such prohibition existed, as far as any evidence has ever been found, and so this is one instance in which the pamphlet states as fact something that is a speculation and, once one explores it a bit, an unlikely one.

 
« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 06:12:30 PM by spgordon »
Check out The Lost Village of Christian's Spring:
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And The Letters of Mary Penry: A Single Moravian Woman in Early America
http://www.psupress.org/books/titles/978-0-271-08108-3.html

Offline rich pierce

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Re: RCA 19
« Reply #82 on: October 05, 2016, 12:03:30 AM »
I would also contribute to a fund to have some modern wizardry attempt to reveal the fuzzy signature. Hundy.
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: RCA 19
« Reply #83 on: October 05, 2016, 02:54:06 AM »
So what type of process can be used?  I have experience with spectography to determine composition and magna fluxing, but neither would really work here I don't believe.  We're not really concerned with the composition of the barrel (spectrographic analysis) and I *think* for magna fluxing to be useful there needs to be an actual crack or something to break the magnetic field.  However, I swear I remember reading a few years ago about some type of process which could essentially "view" the structure and determine areas under the graver which had been compressed.  Or something like that.

I'm deadly serious, I'd be good for a nice chunk of change.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Robby

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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: RCA 19
« Reply #85 on: October 05, 2016, 03:50:53 AM »
That is EXACTLY what would work. 

So who has an electron microscope out in the garage?  Anyone?  Bueller?   :P
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline rich pierce

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Re: RCA 19
« Reply #86 on: October 05, 2016, 04:44:53 AM »
Can't get a gun barrel into a medical school. Couple years ago I could have got it done on the DL.
St. Louis, Missouri

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: RCA 19
« Reply #87 on: October 05, 2016, 04:01:14 PM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/scientists-develop-a-technique-to-find-serial-numbers-that-have-been-filed-off/2015/05/11/45e76fce-d489-11e4-8fce-3941fc548f1c_story.html

http://gizmodo.com/electron-microscopes-can-reveal-filed-off-serial-number-1687453836

Maybe something here you could use.
Robby

I doubt this would work in the case of an engraved signature.  The article states the process "determines whether a grain’s crystalline order had been jostled from a violent event such as a blow from a symbol-bearing die or a shot of heat from a laser."

-Ron
Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.
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Offline AeroE

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Re: RCA 19
« Reply #88 on: October 05, 2016, 05:02:45 PM »
I would start with simple; a die penetrant inspection. 

After that, I would get the barrel under (high) magnification with an NDT specialist experienced in the art of interpreting fatigued surfaces.  First let him look without knowing exactly what he's hunting except that it's an engraved "signature", and if that is not productive, then look with an example signature alongside to help look for landmarks.

In the mean time, I would hunt up a university lab with a materials science and archeology department on campus to work up a collaboration to get the gun under a scanning electron microscope.  Don't let the gun come under direct unsupervised control of anyone in either department, especially grad students!



Lee Lawson
Missouri

Offline Hefner

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Re: RCA 19
« Reply #89 on: October 05, 2016, 06:12:28 PM »
Would examining the signature area under a different light source, such as ultraviolet, infrared, or other wavelengths, etc., be of benefit?

Offline AeroE

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Re: RCA 19
« Reply #90 on: October 05, 2016, 11:34:29 PM »
Would examining the signature area under a different light source, such as ultraviolet, infrared, or other wavelengths, etc., be of benefit?

The dye penetrant inspection is conducted under ultraviolet light or white light depending on the indicator type.

After the indicator is developed, every tiny crack, crevice, pit, and machined lap (i.e., from filing) will light up.  I don't know how a rusty surface or one with "patina" will appear, likely thousands of tiny little pin points of light.  But I bet if there is a pattern to be revealed, it will show up.

The questions to sort through before committing to a gun are whether anything useful can be found without a polished surface, i.e., through rust, and whether the material can be removed with basically solvent and not much else.  Experimenting on a junk barrel is the way to go here, maybe one that is engraved and then artificially aged to obscure the engraving.

The cost for the materials for a white light inspection is low, maybe $50.  Might be able to get the work done for a six pack at an engine shop or the airport.

Magnetic particle inspection is worth considering, too.  Also inexpensive if done at the airport or an engine shop that has the equipment already.




« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 11:49:01 PM by AeroE »
Lee Lawson
Missouri

Offline RAT

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Re: RCA 19
« Reply #91 on: October 10, 2016, 06:11:46 AM »
There is one problem with these suggestions for closer examination... the owner won't even let photos be posted. Why? Because he doesn't want a critical study to challenge the "facts" that, in his eyes, have already been proven. Everything I've read here about ownership of RCA19 (by the "chief") and the sister rifle (by Albrect) is about as plausible as the fake histories people make up to justify modern "fantasy" rifles.

Our only hope is that these guns are sold to folks more interested in researching the reality and not speculating on fantasy. In the end the only thing that will support the ownership of RCA19 by an indian is provenance, not the meaning of a panther engraved on a trigger guard. Where did RCA19 come from? Is there a chain of ownership that can be determined? Did it originate from a tribal member? What we need is a paper trail.

Examination of the supposed Albrect gun may support that he made this, and possibly both, rifles. But it won't prove he owned either without provenance.
Bob

Offline spgordon

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Re: RCA 19
« Reply #92 on: October 10, 2016, 03:29:12 PM »
The notion that RCA19 was Paxinosa's rifle is an interesting speculation--hinging entirely on the panther engraving (which might signify many things). I think unlikely, but I can see that the evidence might be persuasive.

The notion that Albrecht himself "owned" the other as a "personal rifle" (because he signed it) is, at best, wild speculation and, at worst, just woefully uninformed. There is no evidence or even argument that could make this claim plausible.
Check out The Lost Village of Christian's Spring:
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And The Letters of Mary Penry: A Single Moravian Woman in Early America
http://www.psupress.org/books/titles/978-0-271-08108-3.html

Offline rich pierce

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Re: RCA 19
« Reply #93 on: October 10, 2016, 05:00:44 PM »
I really appreciate the sharing of information about the two related rifles, setting aside the conclusions in the pamphlet.  With early rifles, there can be a sense that a rifle is a "one off" and certainly RCA 19 was one of those for me with the early furniture including the buttplate choice and the engravings on the guard and buttplate, plus the very simple but effective buttstock carving.  It is extremely fortunate that another very closely related rifle has been found and shared.  Just when we think they've all been found, something pops up.

If we go further than, "hmm, RCA 19 may not be an Albrecht rifle or even a Christians Spring rifle" does anyone care to speculate where it might have been made? Or with rifles this early without clear offspring carrying similar motifs, is there too little to go on?

Nobody has brought up that most/all of the early Bethlehem/Christians Spring rifles are step-wristed rifles.  Clearly Albrecht had the training and exposure to build most anything of the period from his journeyman days in Europe and later built a straight-wristed rifle probably while in Lititz (when in Rome...).  Given that RCA 19 is a straight-wristed rifle and that it was likely made before 1770, perhaps well before then (bolstered by the short-barreled twin), that leaves me leaning toward Reading or Lancaster as other possible origins.  Initially Reading, perhaps only due to the simple tang carving, but it lacks the sort of pregnant look of some early Reading rifles.

To be clear, I am not dismissing that these 2 rifles could have been made by Albrecht.  To me that depends on the signature, obviously much more so than the engravings on the guard and buttplate of RCA 19.
St. Louis, Missouri