Author Topic: shot placement  (Read 11584 times)

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7675
shot placement
« on: September 26, 2016, 12:30:45 AM »
Just got back from bear hunting with my 58 flinter. Got lucky again and had a good shot angle so double lung/heart shot brought down a bear in about 18-20 yds. I have a 62 flinter on the work bench now and am wondering if you can get pass through performance on a shoulder shot at say 30 yds. with a stout load in the 62 RB-pure lead. I get pass through with the 58 on lung shots but have never taken a shoulder shot on a bear. I'm talking 350# or bigger bear. Has any one gotten that type of performance on shoulder shots on bigger bear? I'm thinking that at that range and a stout load the ball will upset more and might have less penetration.

Offline wattlebuster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2051
Re: shot placement
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2016, 12:59:51 AM »
Congrats on the bear. Now render all that fat for some fine lube
Nothing beats the feel of a handmade southern iron mounted flintlock on a cold frosty morning

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7675
Re: shot placement
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2016, 01:25:20 AM »
Thats right Wattlebuster, I still have some from about 15 years ago in the fridge. Somewhat off subject but I wonder how long the stuff stays good if not kept cool?

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12549
Re: shot placement
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2016, 02:02:04 AM »
It lasts practically for ever....if your poured it hot and into clean jars.

Your .62 will completely pass thorough a big black bear at 30 yds.  Two years ago, at 80 yds, I shot completely through a bull moose with mine on a lung shot.  The brush on the offside was blasted with blood.  Load was .350 gr. .613" pure lead ball, .020" denim patch with mink oil lube, and 127 gr. FFg GOEX.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7675
Re: shot placement
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2016, 02:31:47 AM »
Thanks Taylor for the info. My 58 will blast right through a bigger bear too with lung shots. 570 pure lead-mink oil 20/1000 denim and 110 gr. 1&1/2 swiss but I don't know if it would do it on a double shoulder shot.

Offline L. Akers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 506
Re: shot placement
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2016, 04:45:31 AM »
I wouldn't want to try a shoulder shot on a bear-- or any other animal that has big bones for that matter.  I'd stick with the double-lung/heart shot.  If you want to try to break a shoulder, I'd aim to hit the off shoulder after the ball has passed through the heart and lungs.

Offline Jerry V Lape

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3021
Re: shot placement
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2016, 07:58:28 AM »
Visit your local butcher and get a boned out shoulder to test it on.  I haven't tried it on game but I would bet the  .58 and large balls will not have much problem on a 350 lb bear's shoulder.  The beef shoulder will be a more severe test. 

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7675
Re: shot placement
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2016, 02:24:41 PM »
Good idea Jerry, I am going to one on Thursday and will see if he has one.

Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4535
Re: shot placement
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2016, 05:10:43 PM »
My .62 has taken two bears, one about 225# and the other 350 or so. Both times were complete pass throughs.
One shoulder and out the other side on the larger bear , due to the angle.  I like to use wheel weight lead for bear hunting, and usually use my 10 bore New England fowling gun.  Balls have all gone completely through everything I've shot.

Offline WKevinD

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1376
Re: shot placement
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2016, 07:35:45 PM »
The last bear I got was with a .75  smooth (90 gr.ffg) at about thirty yards and a pass thru but I luckily did not hit the scapula. The energy was enough to roll him over and he regained his feet and went about 40 yards with a double lung hit.
I would think a .62 would have more penetrating power but I would still wait  for the quartering away shot. 
Kevin
PEACE is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.  Thomas Jefferson

Online Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5417
Re: shot placement
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2016, 08:51:38 PM »
 I'm puzzled by all you guys raving about pass through shots. At the velocity of a muzzleloader the ball doesn't produce the shock a modern round does. So when the bullet exits the game, any remaining energy is wasted. If vital organs aren't compromised, or arteries aren't damaged, a pass through shot might lead to a long day of tracking, which is easier if you have two leakin' spots, I guess. I have been on deer hunts, elk hunts, and pig hunts, out here on the left coast,  with several fellow black powder hunters, and only experience two pass through shots. By the way, both of those pass through shots required more killin'.
 Hard lead is only used out here on hogs. Hard lead on soft bodied game only makes your gun less effective, IMO.

  Hungry Horse

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5314
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: shot placement
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2016, 10:08:24 PM »
Congratulations on that bear, grouch.  Never yet shot a bear but I'd bet a WW ball would smash a shoulder to bits.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4535
Re: shot placement
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2016, 11:23:55 PM »
I understand about "energy" etc , but I'm honestly not all that concerned about "wasting" energy when talking round balls and my muzzleloaders. When my 10 bore or .62 rifle opens up a window through an animal, they are dead on their feet. Never had to track a single one.  How much actual energy does a .54 ball have at 100 yds or further?  And yet, I've seen that .535 ball drop a moose within a couple of steps. I'm not trying to be contrary...just giving my 2 cents

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12549
Re: shot placement
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2016, 12:18:51 AM »
Shots where the ball remains in the critter make tracking about impossible.  The ball pulls a wad of hair into the entry hole, and plugs it up...no blood trail.  A pass through is quite the opposite.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Arcturus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 463
Re: shot placement
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2016, 12:58:44 AM »
Talk of "wasted energy" is just that... wasted energy.  Bullets, be they round ball or otherwise, don't kill by imparting energy...the energy is used by the bullet to punch holes through flesh and bone.  If it didn't exit, it didn't have enough mass or energy to begin with, in my book.  The idea that a bullet that stays in game rather than exiting somehow did more damage is false.  If it had "more energy" it would have exited.  If it expanded and seemingly did more damage, it was the wider hole, not a "dumping" of energy.
Jerry

Offline Standing Bear

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 667
Re: shot placement
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2016, 01:43:41 AM »
Shots where the ball remains in the critter make tracking about impossible.  The ball pulls a wad of hair into the entry hole, and plugs it up...no blood trail.  A pass through is quite the opposite.

  X 2
Nothing is hard if you have the right equipment and know how to use it.  OR have friends who have both.

http://texasyouthhunting.com/

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7675
Re: shot placement
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2016, 05:19:24 AM »
An interesting subject with lots of opinions. In the last two years I have been lucky as I have taken three bears with the above mentioned 58 flinter and load. Two pass through and one where I recovered the ball against the off side hide right behind the shoulder. That bear went about 20 yds. This last spring with a pass through one went about 50 yds. and this falls bear went 20 yds.tops. Not complaining about the results or performance of the rifle/load but am just curious about others experience's and loads. If I should ever go after one of those horrible bears I might want to use what Bob mentioned, a WW ball in the 62.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9751
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: shot placement
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2016, 07:13:49 AM »
I'm puzzled by all you guys raving about pass through shots. At the velocity of a muzzleloader the ball doesn't produce the shock a modern round does. So when the bullet exits the game, any remaining energy is wasted. If vital organs aren't compromised, or arteries aren't damaged, a pass through shot might lead to a long day of tracking, which is easier if you have two leakin' spots, I guess. I have been on deer hunts, elk hunts, and pig hunts, out here on the left coast,  with several fellow black powder hunters, and only experience two pass through shots. By the way, both of those pass through shots required more killin'.
 Hard lead is only used out here on hogs. Hard lead on soft bodied game only makes your gun less effective, IMO.

  Hungry Horse
Exit holes produce better blood trails.  The energy transfer is irrelevant. I have very seldom had a ball stay in a critter. It happens now and then but I never thought about it effecting how soon the animals fall over. Unless the CNS is shocked or disrupted the critter will probably stay up till the brain runs out of oxygen.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Don Adams

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 257
Re: shot placement
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2016, 04:57:50 AM »
It would seem that if you get a pass through on the lungs - taking both out - the lungs collapse which would then suffocate the animal.  Now it can lead to less of a blood trail, but should take the animal down pretty close.  I use this shot placement when trapping coyotes and dispatch it with a .22 pistol to the lungs.  There is less blood on fur, but it goes down quickly.  Not as quick as a shot to the skull, but head shots are extremely bloody and when skinning a coyote - I don't like to have to wash the blood off the pelt.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9751
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: shot placement
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2016, 08:03:53 PM »
Talk of "wasted energy" is just that... wasted energy.  Bullets, be they round ball or otherwise, don't kill by imparting energy...the energy is used by the bullet to punch holes through flesh and bone.  If it didn't exit, it didn't have enough mass or energy to begin with, in my book.  The idea that a bullet that stays in game rather than exiting somehow did more damage is false.  If it had "more energy" it would have exited.  If it expanded and seemingly did more damage, it was the wider hole, not a "dumping" of energy.
There is ALWAYS energy transfer when a bullet strikes a target that will slows or stops its travel.
A gallon of supermarket drinking water shot with a 50 caliber rb driven by 90 gr of FFF at 25 yards will illustrate this. But at 100 yards do to reduced velocity the jug will not be so violently effected.
Big animals are not water jugs and they are not solid water so their mass and the air in the lungs for example, reduce the shock wave effect that would be seen in a jug of water.
This is a 5+- gallon jug of water shot with my 16 bore rifle.
 
Its energy transfer that causes the jug to react as it does.
Having shot deer with this rifle at similar distance I can assure you that the effect is less violent and the deer not only may not fall down but likely will run off 20-50 yards before falling.
High levels of energy transfer require high velocity (like the 50 RB at 25 yards) and a large diameter or rapidly expanding  bullet is needed to get really effect. Pushing a 1/2" rod into a gallon of water will not cause the jug to violently decompose. For the most part BP simply does not produce the velocity to make massive energy transfer (such a shooting a prairie dog with a modern varmint rifle) possible at hunting ranges. Shooting deer with HV bullets that are prone to rapid expansion can light weight for the energy they carry can cause significant meat loss for the hunter because of the rapid energy transfer causing wide spread  bruising (blood shot) of edible parts.
To step into the brass suppository world a 243 win will transfer more energy to a target with the right bullet than a similar energy level 45-70-405 BP load will simply because the low velocity load will not cause massive disruption of the bullet as it encounters tissue. It will kill the animal well if placed right and produce no meat loss. But it will penetrate through a deer from almost any angle where as the modern HV bullet will loose its velocity much faster and is likely to stop in a relatively short distance compared to a 405 gr lead alloy bullet from a 45-70.
I should be building fence right now..... So I am shutting this off by saying that in the traditional ML world use a ball weight suitable for the game I like 50 cal for deer for example and consider is a nice safe minimum, use enough powder to get a trajectory and accuracy that is suitable and don't worry about energy levels. Its there, but in our world it does not mean much.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Arcturus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 463
Re: shot placement
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2016, 10:48:19 PM »
Agree completely, Dan.  The only time energy "transfer" really enters the equation when killing animals is at the extremely high velocities of modern high-powered cartridge rifles.  With pistol bullets, shotgun slugs, arrows, and our subject, roundballs propelled by black powder, it's the hole that counts.  There's more than one way to skin a cat, as they say, so sure a ball that expands and stays in the animal will work (and often quickly) if it takes out both lungs.  But I always prefer to err on the side of more penetration to cover different angles, penetrate through bone, and still get through the vitals every time.  And as so many others mentioned, complete penetration means a blood trail whereas a bullet that stays inside the animal usually means the blood stays in also and there is little if any blood trail.  Put a hole through the vitals, don't worry about "transferring energy".
Jerry

Offline oldtravler61

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4314
  • We all make mistakes.
Re: shot placement
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2016, 05:01:48 AM »
Well said Dan. Agree wholeheartedly.

Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4535
Re: shot placement
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2016, 06:19:18 PM »
A dear friend , now passed, gave this advice.  If you want more "energy" i.e.  killing power, when hunting with a muzzleloader, you had best go "bigger".   My 10 bore is IMO more immediately lethal i.e. game drops faster, than a 12 gauge shooting slugs. 

Offline oldtravler61

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4314
  • We all make mistakes.
Re: shot placement
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2016, 07:51:18 PM »
The other rid bit is. How accurate are you with said weapon. It's all fine at the shooting range. But when your out hunting and the animal shows up . Then your caught in an awkward position. How well can you shoot said weapon for a humane kill? Two things matter in big game hunting.  Shot placement an your tracking skills when things don't go right. The last one if very important. Imho

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15075
Re: shot placement
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2016, 03:22:05 AM »
Friend of mine had to reduce his .75 rifle's load to 120gr. (1,250fps) to keep a WW 600gr. ball inside a moose.  With 150gr.,and 1,350fps, he was getting exits. Both loads dropped the moose, btw.

165gr. in my .69 with 466gr. WW ball stopped under the hide due to the rib and leg bone smashing, I assume.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 03:22:44 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V