Author Topic: French TULLE Carbine 1816 ?  (Read 3569 times)

Offline Captchee

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French TULLE Carbine 1816 ?
« on: December 12, 2016, 02:49:50 AM »
good evening
 I'm hopping you folks can help me confirm what I have here
 this piece was brought to me a few months ago .  from what I been told , this piece has been in the owners family for some 80  years
 recently during a cross cuntry move fromn NY ,the stock was broken .
 I'm thinking its a French 1777 or 1816 that's been converted  and made into a carbine . I'm not real sure as the stock  does not appear to be cut down .
 thus I considered possibly a 1763. however as you can see the lock seems wrong and the stock has the cheek cut out of the 1777
 I ruled out the 1777 carbine  as those were 2 band were they not ?
 here are some photos
























Offline smart dog

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Re: French TULLE Carbine 1816 ?
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2016, 02:27:15 PM »
Hi Captchee,
I'll hazard a guess.  I think it is a French model 1822 gendarme carbine that was converted during the 1840s or so to percussion.  It has a French model 1822 flintlock with the standard conversion including the rear sight on the barrel tang. I believe the rear swivel anchor was moved to the butt stock. The slot in front of the trigger guard bow is where it likely was mounted on longer muskets.  If I am correct, the barrel would be about 29-30 inches long. One thing that confuses me, however, is that I believe most gendarme guns were mounted in brass but the French made made so many special models of their guns it is hard to be sure about much.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Captchee

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Re: French TULLE Carbine 1816 ?
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2016, 07:31:03 PM »
 thanks smartdog. for the reply .
 when  it was brought to me I considered that, as well as the later artillery and Calvary carbines  .
 however I again  I ran into the issue  Iron vs  brass mountings .
 the only reference I could find was  a brief reference in one of Popes writings  of some of  the 1877 and 1816 conversions having iron.

   the barrel has been missing for years  from what I was told . they did bring me , as you can see the  breech which is still threaded into about 1 1/2 inchs of barrel , which still has the markings on it . the tang  does carry what remains of small case  lettering. Under my engraving scope  what remains looks to possibly be a small case B or L followed by either a c or a small case script S . which if memory serves  donates the rifling of the barrel but I cant find my old research books on the subject .
 the lock is a conversion which looks to have had the slanted pan vs the more flat pan  judging by the fill plate  where the old pan would have set .
 all the hardware carries the same 4 slash marks . Lock, stock  , Tang , TG  and where there are numbers they match up . Suggesting to me  all the parts are of the original build and or conversion

 as to the swivel . I'm sorry I didn't realize I had left  the Trigger key out of the photo .  there is a very well fitted key that goes through the  front of the trigger bow , through the trigger plate , which is then held to the stock with a pin . I noticed that  in the photos the rear swivel looks to be cast .
 that's  not the case its  also forged and also carried the 4 slash marks .. The trigger plate also carries the  formed peaks / grip with the bow itself hooking into the trigger plate  and being retained in place by the  key .
 so agreed at one time the rear swivel may have been up front . then moved to the toe of the stock . resulting in the replacement key that holds the trigger bow in place .


 On the side of the stock you can see the TULLE  stamping . but just forward of that  is a hole which is also surrounded by stamping. only a small amount is visible
 what is visible is clearly 18  and the rest not visible enough to read  other then to see that there was at one time more letters . . the markings around the whole  remind me of   what one would see if looking at the rim of a shell casing . I'm somewhat confused as to what that is all about .
 Possibly an armors tag ? 

 I have also noted that in at least 7 places . Stock , lock , barrel bands and  the section of the barrel , is a marking that as best as I can describe looks like  a  backwards ?   setting on top of  with a large case G  . maybe more like a script E on top of a script G  .
  I  have so far found this mark or what I believe to be remnants of the mark  on the stock between  the TULLE stamping and  what Im just going to call the hole stamping .
Also on the side plate  mortise   inside an oval which one would normally associate with having Liege stamps . which would fit the slash markings that im also seeing. Each  of the barrel bands also carry the same oval  with this inside  as does the breech end of the barrel and the inside of the lock .
 the barrel bands also have  springe pins  not retaining screws .

 I guess I maybe as close as I going to get  when it comes to a model . I find this one to be rather intriguing
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 07:38:18 PM by Captchee »

Offline OLUT

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Re: French TULLE Carbine 1816 ?
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2016, 08:39:51 PM »
I checked your images against my original French Model 1822 flint musket and the stock & fittings are identical ( except for the various cut down conversion features).I think that Smart Dog hit the identification correctly....  Is the tang marked? Typically the model 1822 has the stamping "ML 1822" and if the conversion was done in France to percussion it would also be stamped with a "T" and then if further modified to rifled barrel, a "bis" marking would also be added. If this was converted in the US, no such additional stampings would have been added. (I think that almost 200, 000 of these then obsolescent French muskets were imported early in  our Civil War .... but I'd need to pull up my references to get the exact number)

Offline Captchee

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Re: French TULLE Carbine 1816 ?
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2016, 10:11:24 PM »
 there is  alittle left of the markings on the Tang but not much that can be made out .
 I did run across some information today while searching the web  of a 1777 dragoon  which minus  brass TG and front band being of brass 
is near identical  down to the circular stamping  on the stock
 
 I think you for your input .  I'm not trying to make more of this then what it is  as from what I'm reading the 1822 was made from several models to include the 1816 and 1777
  I did also see a photo of what was described as a 1822  converted 1816 but it didn't have the cheek cut out

Offline smart dog

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Re: French TULLE Carbine 1816 ?
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2016, 10:55:31 PM »
Hi Captchee,
But the artillery and gendarmerie carbines did have the cheek cut out, I believe.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Captchee

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Re: French TULLE Carbine 1816 ?
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2016, 11:25:24 PM »
LOL well that muddied things up  for me LOL .
 i think ill just tell the owner its an 1822 and leave it at that .
 he wants it put back together and a new barrel set to the original stock . that ot to be fun lol
 thanks for all you guys help appreciate it
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 11:26:19 PM by Captchee »

gizamo

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Re: French TULLE Carbine 1816 ?
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2017, 02:24:47 PM »
Please post pics if you go forward with the project.... I think a lot of folks would appreciate seeing the process unfold.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: French TULLE Carbine 1816 ?
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2017, 05:30:03 PM »
French muskets turn up from time to time with a lot of modifications, and conversions, this is likely one of those. I examined a carbine ( oddly enough with a Maubeuge marked lock as well) several years ago. It seemed to be an assembly of French musket parts spanning several musket models. The lock was of the 1763 or earlier pattern, but unlike the 1763 models made in other French armories it had a brass pan. The barrel appeared to be its original length, but when I removed it from the stock, I found a wedding band under the rear barrel band. The barrel bands were bored for the earlier spring clips that had a small pin that went through a hole in the band to secure it, but the springs were of the later model that just use a notch to secure them. The stock was the 1777 pattern, and the all iron hardware was a mix of French patterns with finely made wood filler pieces made to fill gaps in the inlets. I speculated that the gun might have been assembled here from the surplus parts we received from the French government during the American revolution.

  Hungry Horse