Author Topic: thumb starting  (Read 12413 times)

Offline little joe

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thumb starting
« on: December 13, 2016, 06:35:43 PM »
I tried thumb starting some  balls in my .50 cal. .490 ball and a  thin patch. 25 yds wasn,t to bad , 50yds less so and 100 yds very bad. Have any of you guys tried this and what were the results?

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: thumb starting
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2016, 07:17:41 PM »
Not like you tried it. I've often thought of having the muzzle coned so I could start the ball without a ball starter. I still want a tight fit.

Offline hanshi

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Re: thumb starting
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2016, 08:37:28 PM »
Coning a barrel is something of a $#@* shoot.  Many have found a coned barrel just as accurate as previously in addition to being some easier to load.  On the other hand there are others who mourn the loss of accuracy; and still others who would not cone under any circumstances.  I prefer not to cone.  For one thing, I don't have any problem seating prb in any of my barrels.
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Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: thumb starting
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2016, 08:55:50 PM »
Which is why i've never done it. However, we do know a lot of the guns from the past were coned. I don't believe anybody has found a ball starter from the old days.

No way to get my PRB started with just my hands and ramrod. I've tried.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: thumb starting
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2016, 03:02:19 AM »
Rather than cone my .54 hunting rifle, I filed grooves into the lands at the muzzle. Someone posted an example some time ago here, and I thought I would try it. Additional grooves to take the patching allows for extremely easy loading. Accuracy is still the same on this rifle, so I'm happy with the results

Offline bones92

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Re: thumb starting
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2016, 03:36:20 AM »
Bob in the Woods, can you post a photo?
If it was easy, everyone would do it.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: thumb starting
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2016, 06:16:57 AM »
There are several photos in Jim Gordons books on early western guns such as Hawken, Leman, Henry and others that have had the same treatment that Bob is talking  about.

Offline gumboman

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Re: thumb starting
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2016, 03:54:49 PM »
In the summer of 2015, I bought Ed Hamburg's coning tool after reading about it on this forum. It has been stored in my tool chest since that time because I was reluctant to use it after reading the pro and con comments here.

Last week I stepped out on the edge and used it on a 62 caliber round ball barrel of which I could never get the accuracy I expected. Up until last week my best and most accurate load was a .610' ball, .017" linen patch lubed with mink oil and 120 grains of 2f black powder. I also had to use a protective patch on top of the powder before loading the patch and ball to prevent patch burn out. With that load the gun was a 75 yard maximum deer rifle.

I wanted to use a thicker patch and tried that but it required a hammer to get the patch and ball started. I did not want that in a hunting gun.

So I used the coning tool. I did not take the cone to a thumb start stage, instead I coned just enough so I could get a .610" ball and .026" thick lube patch started with my short starter. Low and behold my groups tightened up nicely. And they were consistent out to 100 yards. This is what I was hoping to achieve. Now I don't need the extra protective patch over the powder. The .026 denim patches hold up nicely and I think I could increase the powder charge without harming the patch.

The end result after using the coning tool has been great for me. I can use a thicker patch, loading is easier, my accuracy improved and I have more confidence in using this particular gun for deer hunting. I might in the future use the tool again on this barrel and take it to a thumb start stage but that is for another day.

Offline bones92

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Re: thumb starting
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2016, 06:28:45 PM »
Posting for bob in the woods...

If it was easy, everyone would do it.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: thumb starting
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2016, 07:21:41 PM »
So Bob in the Woods, did you just go by eye when you cut those groves in the ends of the lands, or did you have some index mark where you wanted to stop and start?

Offline little joe

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Re: thumb starting
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2016, 07:42:42 PM »
I tried thumb starting some  balls in my .50 cal. .490 ball and a  thin patch. 25 yds wasn,t to bad , 50yds less so and 100 yds very bad. Have any of you guys tried this and what were the results?
I have not coned this one yet, however I  have coned several bbls. and had no adverse effects. One was a severally bent barrel that I straightened and coned and it shot very well.I have did this stuff for 45 yrs. and I am always trying something different.

Offline hanshi

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Re: thumb starting
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2016, 10:48:37 PM »
Posting for bob in the woods...




A friend of mine did this to his rifles muzzle and it looks nice & even like this one; it still shoots great, too.  I'd be afraid to try it, myself, since I don't have the steady hand/eye needed.  It is attractive.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: thumb starting
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2016, 11:40:06 PM »
I simply marked a depth of 3/8th of an inch into the bore as a guide, and then filed the grooves into the middle of each land maintaining the appropriate angle. I ended up slightly deeper than the original marked depth [ sharpie pen ]  but the additional space accommodates the patch nicely and allows for an easy loading. Accuracy wasn't affected, probably because there isn't any actual coning.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: thumb starting
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2016, 11:57:02 PM »
OK thanks, did you have any mark on the face of the muzzle to let you know when to stop on that surface or did you just wing it?

Offline bones92

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Re: thumb starting
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2016, 12:39:28 AM »
Bob, did you use a triangular file?

Why does coning hurt accuracy (sometimes)?  If it is done uniformly, shouldn't the rifle shoot just the same?

I suppose this is all why false muzzles were used on target rifles...
If it was easy, everyone would do it.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: thumb starting
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2016, 01:04:24 AM »
As far as depth was concerned, I winged it. I stopped filing when the patched ball would load easily. Just used a sheet of patch material and a ball, so I could pop the ball out of the muzzle as I checked. I used a small triangular file but could have used a small round file...I don't believe it would matter much.  Others must have some experience with this, because I didn't come up with the idea on my own  :)

Offline Daryl

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Re: thumb starting
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2016, 01:39:31 AM »
Taylor Hynied / Hinied? his .50 Virginia. It still shoots fine - decorative filing at the muzzle.

Bob- I recall the article on filing the lands to below the grooves as well. I would think filing the lands to the grooves, then also filing the grooves & the lands out that .002 to .005" more would be even better.
 You would end up with something like this- with works perfectly for all of us.

Not as snakey looking as the hynied/heinied, filed muzzle- but at only 1/18" deep or less, is So easy to do and do perfectly.  As you can see- they are not all identical- they do not have to be to allow loading tight loads without a mallet, claw or sledge hammer or maul.







« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 01:40:16 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: thumb starting
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2016, 02:37:11 AM »
Daryl, my smoothbores and my .40 rifle look like yours  :)   But, I liked the looks of the file job, and it works pretty well too !
I'm surprised that Taylor had the nerve to do it to his Virginia. If I recall correctly, he built that rifle specifically for target shooting, it having a rather heavy barrel.

Offline Daryl

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Re: thumb starting
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2016, 09:10:05 PM »
Yes- it's a D-weight .50. Perfect offhand rifle, however it shoots 2" low - for me- all his guns do.;D
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline smallpatch

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Re: thumb starting
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2016, 09:52:52 PM »
To file a heinie muzzle, the barrel is usually coned first.  Then the file work is done in the coned area.  This prevents the filing from interfering with the new crown created inside the barrel by the cone.
At least that's how I learned from Don Getz.
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Offline Marcruger

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Re: thumb starting
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2016, 03:12:31 AM »
My first thought is that if you can thumb start a ball/patch combo, your patch is too this and won't seal.  God Bless,   Marc

Offline WadePatton

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Re: thumb starting
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2016, 03:52:30 AM »
My first thought is that if you can thumb start a ball/patch combo, your patch is too this and won't seal.  God Bless,   Marc
Yes, I too am of the Sapergia School of Snug Loadings (SSSL).  8)

Last load is a squib too.  Uh huh.
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Offline RichG

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Re: thumb starting
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2016, 04:14:30 AM »
45 cal Colrain .435 rb .015 patch mink oil lube. starts with thumb pressure and loads easily with the ram rod. Below 70gr. 3f accuracy is poor. over 80gr 3f and the patches burn through. When loading a loose patch/ball combo you need enough powder to get the ball to obturate  and seal the bore. easy to do in smaller calibers. haven't had any luck in my 58 so I coned it. .565 rb .030 patch loads and shoots great.

Offline hanshi

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Re: thumb starting
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2016, 07:24:20 PM »
In my .45 both .440" (Lee mold) and .445" (single cavity Lyman mold) load and shoot the same.  I load snug, as well, with a .022" patch.  I intend to get a dbl Lee mold for at least a .445" ball.  Current seating resistance is noticeable but not, by any means, severe.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Daryl

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Re: thumb starting
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2016, 10:49:52 PM »
45 cal Colrain .435 rb .015 patch mink oil lube. starts with thumb pressure and loads easily with the ram rod. Below 70gr. 3f accuracy is poor. over 80gr 3f and the patches burn through. When loading a loose patch/ball combo you need enough powder to get the ball to obturate  and seal the bore. easy to do in smaller calibers. haven't had any luck in my 58 so I coned it. .565 rb .030 patch loads and shoots great.

We've had the obturation argument using round balls here a few times, and in other forums and I've thought/considered the same as you about loads. At some point, there is or must be an obturation pressure, even for round balls - but- will that happen before gas blow-by ruins the patch completely?  The higher the pressure/velocity, the more chance for burning and blow-by: - thus, there must be or probably is a fine line for a given patch, that may be approached quite closely, but not passed.  If, per chance the ball obturates before the patch is destroyed, fine.

In using .562" balls in my tight (574") model 1861 rifle with it's progressive depth rifling, the patch does not reach the bottom of the grooves when the patched ball is on the powder. This is because when driving it into the muzzle, the ball and it's .0225" to .0235" patch are compressed from their original size of .607" to a maximum of .580" in diameter(.003" depth rifling per side, at the muzzle). At the breech, the rifling is .008" deeper per side, so the groove depth is .596". With a charge of 85gr. 2f and a velocity of 1,308fps, the patches are actually re-usable, showing the soft lead ball (somewhat elongated ball) must be slugging up to fill the grooves at the breech, even with this load. Now, Forsyth noted back in 1860, that the ball or bullet would slug to fit the bore BEFORE it started moving.  Writers since that time have said the same thing - but - I suggest there is another criteria for this to work, thus this will depend on the quickness of the pressure build curve, compared to the mass and 'purchase the projectile has on the bore, ie: the resistance the ball has to forward movement allowing or not, the obturation of the ball or bullet.

I prefer to use tight loads, snug, as Wade says, that give good accuracy right from the get go.  No matter what load is used, they still seal - producing quite literally, reusable patches - if you wish. Yes - the edges fray a little from muzzle blast, and fray even more the higher the pressure.  More powder, more pressure.  In my loading, the sealing part of the patch, that part that touches the bottom of the grooves, is the barrier between the ball to that pressure and flame. It MUST maintain it's integrity and continue to seal ALL of the powder gasses behind it.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V