Recently Acquired - Unsigned

[Molly]

Photos posted as requested by Nathan.

[nosrettap1958]

Any information at all Molly?

[Molly]

"Information" ??  Yes but not sufficient to get a conviction.  Opinions without the bias of that information would be welcomed.

[MGillman]

Any measurements?

[Molly]

Overall length of about 55 inches.  Barrel of about 40.5 with a drop at about 3.25.

Interesting in that it has no side plate but a series of small "silver" nails outlining the general area where one would expect a side plate.

MG...I'll concur with that probability.

BTW, for those who are hesitant to express a view fearing that I'll subsequently "expose" what information I have....I promise not to do that.  I am holding that info to myself as I want unbiased comments. 

[Roger B]

Interesting.  It looks as if the patchbox cavity was not carved out.  Not the type of thing a "period" smith would do.
Roger B.

[Molly]

Roger:  You say "not" carved out but I actually call this carved out vs drilled.  The original above this still shows evidence of a wood bore, three as I recall, and this one is sort of "dug-out".  Never have noticed any gun with the patch box made in that fashion.  So when you say a period smith would not do this what exactly do you mean??

[homerifle]

Its been a few years back but I had a signed J. Sites with the box cavity carved out like this rifle. I never took any pictures of it. I wish I had now!

[Roger B]

Its must be just the picture, but it didn't look like there was a cavity at all.  I have seen rifles from the 60's that didn't have a cavity; just used the patch box as decoration.
Roger B.

[Molly]

Roger:  It does have a cavity, sort of like a dug out canoe...probably used some sort of "gouge" to do it.  It is probably not quite as roomy as a drilled out one however.

homerifle:  That is VERY interesting.  There was John Peter Sites, Sr. and John Peter Sites, Jr.  I think it would be fair to say Sr. worked mostly in Virginia and Jr. mostly in Mo and having seem both signatures, Sr. would probably have been in "script" while Jr would probably been in a block print inlay.  Was yours thought to be a work of Sr. and would you be able to track it down today IF it were made by Sr.??  Any pictures of it??

Many thanks to you both.

[WadePatton]

Thanks for the pics Molly.

I quite like the carved-out, not-drilled cavity, and getting to see another gun.  Every one counts!

[homerifle]

Molly,
  I looked around today and can't find any info. as to where the Sites went to after I sold it. As I said I wish I had taken pictures. I do
remember it having a script signature  and a little better than usual patch box. The lock was percussion and I don't remember if it was ever a flint or not. That's about all I can tell you about it.

[Molly]

Thanks.  Keep me in mind if one pops up.

[n stephenson]

Molly , Thanks for posting. I like the rifle but that don`t count cus I like em all !. Neat box and I like that guard SWEET FIND !!!!  Nathan

[wildcatter]

Molly,

Nice rifle. The spurred trigger guard is a clue, both Painter and Sites rifles have have that characteristic. The patchbox itself looks like McGilvary's work but the thumb guard doesn't curl enough for his work. Dandy rifle, I haven't the slightest clue, good luck, and thanks for showing it to us,

[Molly]

Interesting observations, thanks.

Seems like a strong degree of sentiment on VA for sure.  I have not seen a Sites or Painter embellished as much but I do recall being told about a highly decorated Painter rifle and may actually have seen it but don't recall for sure.  It was back in the days of not being so interested in originals and I did not pay close attention to the details.

[bones92]

Very beautiful.  I'm reminded that these were called "patchboxes" for a reason... they don't have to be terribly deep to hold sufficient numbers of patches for hunting afield.

[bgf]

Probably just me, but the first thing that came to mind was Rockbridge Co., and William Zollman.  I think it is mostly to do with the shape of the buttstock and the forearm.  Not making an ID, just offering another possible place to start looking.

[Molly]

One detail about the butt that may not be clear.  I believe the tip has been chipped off and the bottom (toe) of the butt plate "hammered" around and up toward the toe plate.  That also probably means that the toe plate has been shortened slightly as there is no overlap of the two.

I'm not familiar with Zollman but I see what I can find.

[bgf]

I agree about the toe, common weak spot!

[Don Stith]

Nice Windsor chair. Which style back does it have?  Sorry for the subject change but I have one with similar legs and braces or whatever they are called.

[Molly]

Bow-back.  Set of 4.  Two arm, two side but not old.

[Tom Moore]

There was a William Zollman, (1786-1834) who worked in Rockbridge Co. VA. Son Henry worked in the shop from 1834 until 1896. (MB Nov. 2015. Sarah Rittgers) Hope this helps. -Tom

[Molly]

Tom:  Zollman was noted by another member so there must be a strong resemblance in his work and this rifle. 

[Longknife]

There is a William Zollman in the Library, it belongs to me. I have seen one other Zollman that was very plain, and iron mounted, but very similar.  Both of these rifles have the curved line from the front of the cheek piece to the nose of the comb. Both rifles also have the double line running along the fore stock and ending in at the entry pipe in the same manner.  Hope this helps....Ed

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