Early Bucks Co.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Hey Frank what happened to your thread?  I went to do some digging, came back and it's gone!

Well since the Bucks stuff has been hot of late we should discuss this anyway.  There is the early piece on the KRA CD as well as the early rifle that George wrote up in an article in MB in the 1990s, "A Case of Lehigh Valley Longrifle Evolution."  Also there are a couple of others, I know of one definitely the same guy but not yet published and possibly one or two others.  All of the same period I mean - everyone has been trying to back-date, forward-date, sideways-date etc. this guy because whoever he was, he was one $#*! of a gun stocker and we'd all like to know who he was and where he was working.

We've covered some of this a few times previously over the years, the most recent I remember is here:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=32913.0;nowap

Other than seeing one or at most two more that I'm convinced are the same guy, I still don't know who he was.

IMHO:  the guy was definitely working in Bucks Co area, not up toward Allentown or elsewhere in Northampton/Lehigh as George originally investigated.  I just don't see it, especially when looking at the KRA CD rifle as you can literally see the evolution from what looks like the earliest piece (the 1990s MB rifle, that Mr. M originally found) to the KRA CD rifle, which despite retaining an earlier appearance is already melting into the later more 'standardized' Bucks style.  And the other pieces I mention also seem to be directly pointing toward the later Bucks style, nothing relative to further north into Northampton/Lehigh.

IMHO:  this guy very likely was responsible for teaching a number of the later guys; my guess is this guy had a shop with a number of apprentices and some of them at least are some of the later well-known "names."

I have discussed this for quite a while now with some people who think these may be early works of Andrew Werner/Verner.  I can kind of see it, kind of not.  I just don't know.  Hey Eric Armstrong - do you have any more information on Verner?  Im not aware that his genealogy has been definitely confirmed so I'm not sure any of us can definitively pinpoint how old he was, when he was working or how early etc.

If many of the early records out of Bucks had not been lost, we might have some more direction.  Frances Waite who has published a couple of limited circulation books dealing with Bucks Co. genealogy and history probably knows more about early Bucks Co history than anyone alive; she had published a compilation of all of the surviving early tax records although many townships were absent (lost in fire) and I don't recall seeing anything earth shattering as the most complete information is post-Rev.  What would be most helpful would be the 1750s-1760s period; I don't recall there being much available for that period and I no longer have the book.

Also, while we often are looking for this guy somewhere in upper or mid Bucks/Montgomery, the possibility also exists that maybe what we have here is a guy working earlier in Philadelphia (or in the immediate area) and the influence percolated northwards from there.  Possibility?  There were quite a few gunsmiths in Philadelphia from very early on, and of course every conceivable component was available for sale.  The earliest of these pieces, the 1990s MB rifle, looks to have imported furnishings and on the sole occasion that I had the good fortune to handle it when displayed a long, long time ago, the whole piece really had a very strong European feel to my mind.  Whoever he was, many seem to think he was a 'just off the boat' guy.  Very possibly, don't know but very definitely extremely well trained.

[Fullstock longrifle]

Thank you for your thoughts Eric, I sent you a PM with further explanation.

[Spinner]

 Hey Eric Armstrong - do you have any more information on Verner?  Im not aware that his genealogy has been definitely confirmed so I'm not sure any of us can definitively pinpoint how old he was, when he was working or how early etc.


Andrew Verner is the most recognized gunsmith of the “Bucks County” style. At this time there are only two known, signed rifles and one pistol. An obviously re-stocked gun, using signed Verner parts also exists. Many unsigned guns have been attributed to Verner, but the similarities in detail and style with other area makers makes positive identification difficult. Verner (not certain it's the same guy) was shown in the Allen Township tax records in 1787, Richland Township tax records in 1789, the 1790 Federal Census in Bucks County (unknown township) and the Marllborough (Montgomery Co. tax records in 1792. Searches through local church and land records reveal several Andreas or Andrew Werners, some fitting nicely into the time frame and locale. 

There is an interesting Andrew Werner who was born in Frederick Township, Philadelphia (now Montgomery) county in 1767.  He was married in Cumru Township, Berks County in 1804, and died there in 1822. Frederick Township is, of course the home of the Antes plantation. I have not; however been able to find any records or estate inventory that would show him as a gunsmith or link him with any known Bucks County or related gunsmiths.

I did a lot of research at the Spruance Library in Doylestown, PA  and came up with some interesting data that I should have spent more time pursuing. I am living in Western PA now, pretty far from good source material. 

One interesting character is Jacob Daub. He was shown as a gunsmith in the 1779-1783 tax records in Upper Salford Township, Montgomery County, just South of Bucks. I have a nice photo of one of his guns in my 2012 KRA article and it shows the typical "Bucks" characteristics. Daub also worked in the same area as the Antes Plantation and is buried in the Old Goshenhoppen Church cemetery.  That particular church had some other interesting members, including the above Andrew Werner.  I also traced the George Weicker family from the St. Augustus Lutheran Church in Trappe, PA to the same area in Montgomery County as Daub. They, then removed to Richlandtown in Bucks County where George, Jr. worked as a gunsmith until 1800. Of course there were a lot of Shulers there too, including one John Shuler who I mistakenly thought was the gunsmith.
 
I really wonder if the Bucks style originated in that area of Montgomery County.

[Dan Fruth]

Here is a link to an early fowler, though I believe you folks would classify it as a smooth rifle...Looks like early Bucks County....Dan

http://jamesdjulia.com/item/lot-2369-outstanding-pre-revolutionary-relief-carved-american-fowler-attributed-to-p-kunz-in-lehigh-county-pa-49680/

  I'd love to hear your comments on this piece.

[Tom Currie]

Dan, Thanks for bringing this rifle to our attention. I think it's very interesting.

 A discussion of this rifle could be a thread by itself. IMHO the butt stock profile would lend me to believe it's late 1770s at best or later. Lots of Bucks County details including the thumbnail finials on the guard,butt plate tang, and in little details in the carving which include up facing little C scrolls off main scrolls.  And <O> this little carving detail in the scroll just forward of the cheek rest is one also. 

One repeating carving detail is the chip carving the off 3 main scrolls, located at each end of the cheek rest and also on the lock side just past the comb wrist junction. All 3 of these similar chip cut sequences also have a squiggly line over them. I have looked through my reference material this evening and can not find another example.

I'd be interesting in other folks thoughts also.

[Eric Kettenburg]

I'll post more when I can but that Julia auction piece is very cool - probably late 1770s or 1780s.  I think that most of the 'classic' Bucks pieces that we all drool over are all definitely post-war guns, probably 1790s at the earliest when the "school" became somewhat fully developed.  I remember getting a god first-hand look at this gun and one thing I can tell you, it's not the same guy as the early 1990s MB smooth rifle nor the more recently discovered KRA CD rifle.  Those two are without a doubt (to my mind) the same guy, there do seem to be a few pieces with something of a similarity in carved style but definitely a degenerate form.  RCA 65 and the very similar companion piece that George postulated were the same guy (as the earlier pieces) I would strenuously protest - it's not the same guy but probably someone either nearby or maybe an apprentice.  But there definitely seems to have been a real old-world master somewhere there in the Bucks - probably upper Bucks, but who knows - region who was strongly influencing the later makers.  It just seems that we can;t put a name to him.  Yet.

[Eric Kettenburg]

I should add:

...

[Dan Fruth]

 When I first found this piece I was very excited. It has all the right stuff going on to be an impressive piece. I have made a barrel and set it in a fine piece of maple, but that is all the further I am. I would love to see this piece in the flesh.....2" butt and all, and full scale photos of it are awsome.....Looking forward to more of your comments Eric.