Author Topic: Revolutionary War? Gun  (Read 4606 times)

Ninthinning

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Revolutionary War? Gun
« on: January 15, 2017, 12:50:23 AM »
I picked this black powder rifle up at an antique store in a small village in Western New York about 25 years ago. The proprietor explained it was a Revolutionary War gun that had been used by Americans to fight for our independence. The mechanism was smuggled into America from England and made into rifles here. The mechanism still works but I've never fired it. Any information about this gun would be greatly appreciated.
Here  is an album of the rifle.  Revolutionary War musket https://imgur.com/gallery/fQtI5

Here is an album of close ups showing text and engraving.
Detail of musket https://imgur.com/gallery/VKT6j

This is discussion I initiated on Reddit in the sub-Reddit r/blackpowder.   One of the people who answered my question recommended I come here for answers.  https://www.reddit.com/r/blackpowder/comments/5ncfe6/revolutionary_war_musket/?sort=confidence


Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Revolutionary War? Gun
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2017, 03:13:18 AM »
Probably circa 1790's. Appears to be a New England built "British style" militia musket. Nice gun.
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Revolutionary War? Gun
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2017, 03:32:05 AM »
HI,
The lock marked "W. Ketland & Co" was made after 1800.  Ketlands were merchants, contractors and wholesalers.  It is possible the lock was smuggled in but not during the Rev War rather the war of 1812.  However, it may have been purchased and imported normally because W. Ketland &Co. were in business until the 1830s.  The stock appears to be maple, which would suggest American manufacture.  Some of the brass hardware looks to come from a late pattern British Brown Bess musket.  However, the ramrod thimbles look to be sheet brass rather than cast suggesting American manufacture. It was probably something made for a militia unit during the early 1800s.  It has no connection at all with the Rev War.  It is a nice smoothbored musket.  As such, it is not a rifle. I recently stabilized, repaired, and lightly cleaned up a similar but lighter carbine bore musket with the same Ketland lock from the early 1800s.

dave
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 03:37:06 AM by smart dog »
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Offline debnal

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Re: Revolutionary War? Gun
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2017, 03:51:33 AM »
With that lock it is definitely not Rev War period but shortly after. The rest of the gun is built with rev war type furniture and the stock style is rev war.
Al

Offline smart dog

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Re: Revolutionary War? Gun
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2017, 02:54:55 PM »
Hi,
Just to make the dates clear, Blackmore (Gunmakers of London), and Bailey and Nie (English Gunmakers) indicate the name "W Ketland & Co." was used from 1808-1831.  The name "W. Ketland" was used 1802-1808.  The lock on the gun in question was, therefore, made at least 20 years after the Rev War.

dave
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Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Revolutionary War? Gun
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2017, 12:38:41 AM »
The earliest the lock can be is about 1803-4... it's probably much later though. I'd say late teens to early 20as.
There was absolutely no reason to smuggle locks or complete guns... there was no import duty on firearms.
Wood means nothing... the Ketlands were exporting American walnut and maple to England for gun stocks.
WK had a partner very shortly after he set up in business... in fact it was the partner and his son who ran the business for years because WK died in 1804... so, the "& Co." was probably in use from the beginning. Bailey & Nie is taken almost exclusively from city directories which are good, but not absolutely reliable where minor changes in name are concerned.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 12:44:10 AM by JV Puleo »

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Revolutionary War? Gun
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2017, 02:07:01 AM »
J V Puleo,
I have seen ship bills of lading from the 1760s showing casks of James River hickory split's for ramrods. I assume the records of the Ketland Co taking in American walnut and maple for gun stocks is located in their private papers or is it availabe elsewhere? Was this early 19th century?

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Revolutionary War? Gun
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2017, 05:26:33 PM »
Don't I wish their private papers could be found. Actually, some of the books of Ketland, Cotrill & Co do exist. This is one of the partnerships that TK Jr. was part of. They certainly dealt in guns but never with their name on them, hence they remain unknown to collectors. The walnut reference comes from purchases of vast swaths of walnut forest in Pennsylvania... the maple from the Liverpool shipping news. It's all late 18th, early 19th century. The export of timber is, however something that needs to be looked into in much greater detail. Walnut is not indigenous to Britain and was only introduced in the 15th century. It was always a "fruit tree" and therefore much too valuable to be cut simply for wood. Hardwood was, at the same time, the largest single export of the American colonies right through the early 19th century. We didn't export soft woods to England (aside from masts for the Royal Navy and likely some other specialty items)... the British bought that in Russia and the Baltic because it was cheaper and the shipping distances were much shorter.

The Ketland, Cotrill papers are in the Birmingham Library. They are the only surviving records of a B'ham merchant company trading with the United States in the late 18th century. Aside from telling us that they did trade in arms, they say little more as the entries are financial... "X amount for XX fowling pieces" etc.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 05:33:02 PM by JV Puleo »

Offline Jesse168

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Re: Revolutionary War? Gun
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2017, 01:43:05 AM »
I know nothing about American Revolution Rifles is my first comment.  It looks to my like there is a large gap between the stock wood and the rear of the flash pan.
Could this possibly point us to the idea that the lock had been replaced later due to damage while fighting hostiles or the British?  Just asking so as to learn a little.
Jesse168
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Revolutionary War? Gun
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2017, 02:27:31 AM »
Hi Jesse,
Welcome to the forum and to commenting.  I do not believe that lock was a replacement. It fits the inlet and lock panel very well and the gap you see is likely 200 years of wood shrinkage. IMO the stock was no product of the British ordnance system and I strongly suspect it was American made using parts from an 19th century pattern British musket.

dave
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Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: Revolutionary War? Gun
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2017, 05:26:12 PM »
Smartdog is definitely right, there are lots of muskets assembled from mixed parts during and after the Revolution and on into the War of 1812 era. Its not uncommon to see a "militia" attributed musket with an American stock and a mix of British and French military components and sometimes commercial components (usually also imported).
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 05:27:00 PM by The Rambling Historian »
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Offline JCKelly

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Re: Revolutionary War? Gun
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2017, 07:06:34 PM »
Ninthinning.
NO
Do not shoot it.

I believe from its age, even though English, it probably has a hand forged barrel. In our Harpers Ferry armory they had sometimes 40% of hand forged barrels not survive proof.

David Condon once told me those bellflowers, engraved on the lock, were typical of trade guns.

When I was an Immortal Superhero (translation: teen aged) I did shoot surplus German and English military guns, circa 1815 - 1836.

Got old. Got degree in metallurgy. Jerry Kirkland once gave me a scrap piece of old wrought iron barrel to play with. Examined under the microscope, as would any proper metallurgist.
Wow.
That was a weld
The thing was so full of laps & slag it is a wonder it did not float.

No, please do not shoot your lovely flintlock.
 
I might suggest you retain your body parts and get a nice Savage or Henry or Ruger. Don't tell anyone on this site, though.