Original Jaeger - any way to strip a modern shellac or varish coat?

[lexington1]

I have this original Bavarian rifle made by JOHANN BUECHENBERGER IN LANDSBERG. It is in really great condition except that it's been coated, probably in the last 40 years or so, with a coat of either varnish or shellac. I say that because there is a record of part of the collection that this came from having been taken out and 'cleaned' in 1966. Anyway everything was coated, wood and metal. Now it's starting to haze and crackle. It appears that under this coat the finish is great. Anybody ever experienced this before? How was the conservation of the original finish done?  I don't want this to turn into a mud slinging, throat cutting, Hatfields and McCoys fight about the ethics of preservation. Just a sane conversation about what folks either have experience with or have seen in this area (and I'm kind of showing off my Jaeger, lol)

[Stan]

Lexington I would start with denatured alcohol & a cloth, or if need be 0000 steel wool. Be gentle

[HIB]

Stan, Beautiful gun. Appreciate your concern re: the excessive varnish.

The 'Decoy' world has problems such as you mention. I have seen several great birds with an old build up of a modern applied finish taken down to the original. Somewhat of a mystery as to how they do it but your gun looks like a good candidate for their expertise.

Send private message via my e-mail and I will pass on several names you can contact. I do not recommend you attempt the removal by yourself.  Regards, HIB

[Mike Brooks]

Sure is a nice gun, I would enjoy seeing more of it. Unfortunately I have no usefull advice for your problem.

[JV Puleo]

Pick an inconspicuous spot and try a little alcohol with a q-tip. A lot of old-time collectors coated everything with yellow shellac. I've seen this a few times... the best example was a powder horn I bought for $10 because I could just barely see, through the thick, curdled shellac, that there was "writing" on it. It turned out to be an extensively carved American horn c.1755, complete with mermaids and a view of NY City.

[Eric Kettenburg]

A lot of 'hardware store' denatured alcohol as well as that sold through places like Lowes, Home Depot etc. is not only alcohol but usually has other solvents added as well.  Not good for this purpose, as those "other solvents" may attack the underlying oil finish, even if slowly.  Best to get some straight methanol, which is historically what was used for mixing shellac, or if you can find it, anhydrous isopropyl (not typical rubbing alcohol, which is cut with water).  I'm pretty sure most luthiers use anhydrous isopropyl now for French polishing as it evaporates even faster than methanol.

This may sound like overkill but that's a darn nice piece.

[Shreckmeister]

By taking solvents to this shellac isn't he running the risk of creating a mucky mess all over this gun?  I had a similarly shellacked rifle and found that by taking razor blade
and working it at an angle drawing it across the wood in the direction opposite the cutting edge slowly and methodically, the shellac is not stuck very well and likely will
lift right off.  If you are careful, don't apply much pressure and your blade is flexible, it may not leave any mark on the wood.  This should only take you about a full work week LOL.
Use magnification so you can see what is happening. 

[JTR]

Wes, I agree with contacting HIB.
John

[lexington1]

Thanks for all of the comments thus far. Here is another rifle that I acquired from the same collection. I suspect that it has had the same treatment but was stripped before it sold at auction a few years ago. This is by Johann Wolf Peter of Ottingen.

[rich pierce]

Very nice!  About when was the Buechenberger rifle made?

[lexington1]

The auction site says it is ca. 1730 and I would tend to agree with this. I haven't found any information regarding this maker yet, but in searching the internet I did find another gun that was dated 1720.

One thing of note about this rifle is that the stock was period shortened approx. an inch from the butt end. Somebody did a really good job of shortening it for some little German prince, but you can see faintly where the butt plate had been moved forward. Also the front trigger was bent back to make the pull length even shorter. The barrel is 30" in length, approx. .510 bore size. It has a beautiful bore with an unusually slow (for a German gun) twist of approx. 1/60".

[Stan]

Johann Wolfgang Peter-(Petter-Pierre) of Ottingen Bavaria, 1664-1732, gunsmith to the court.
In 1687/88 he became a master.

[n stephenson]

Lexington, Thanks for showing these. Please show more. I wish I could help but, I have no experience with this. Are both rear sights missing or is this just the pics?   VERY NICE!!!!       Nathan

[bob in the woods]

I would try the anhydrous isopropyl route, applied with a soft cotton cloth. I've used this before on old instruments. Go very slowly, over a longer period of time. This minimizes the risk to the underlying finish. This isn't a "fast" strip process, but if you are dealing with shellac, it will work.

[lexington1]

Thanks for all of the info so far. I appreciate the dates Stan. The Peter rifle is most definitely very early. From the side profile in the pic it appears to be not very robust, but it is almost an optical illusion. The stock is quite heavy and the butt on this is nearly 2 3/4", excluding the box lid. This rifle, in architecture, is just one step away from looking like a wheel lock. The bone nosecap, the snake-like finial of the buttplate, and the trigger guard would all look right at home on a Wheelock. When the weather improves here I'll take both guns outside and get some good pics.

The rear sights were missing from about half of the sighted guns sold out of this castle. I have no idea why? Weird....

In the dark with my streamlight the shellac is very visible and the The carving is literally pooled with the stuff.

[Ron Scott]

Your Bavarian Rifle is very charming. I am always interested in acquiring new photos form my teaching library. Should you consider sharing, I would be interested in photos that would assist my students in Stock Architecture and decorative elements. I hesitate to add any ideas to the prospect of removing the overlaying finish. Without first hand observation and a microscope, it would be hard to determine the nature of the finish. I did some purposeful crazing with varnish to simulate an antique finish on leather. From that experiment, it might suggest that the overlaying finish on your rifle is a varnish over an incompatible original.

[lexington1]

I will get some good pics and post them when our snow and ice finally melts off, maybe in a few months, lol. You might be right about the top coat being varnish. I'm in no big hurry to do anything with it and want to be certain what I'm dealing with when I do. Thanks very much for all of the great information both on this forum and in private correspondence!

[Paddlefoot]

Maybe the way to proceed would be to test the Anhydrous Alcohol on the coating applied to a metal surface, like the frizzen. At least there would be no underlying finish to worry about softening. Luthiers Mercantile would be a good place to look for the alcohol. Another solvent you might consider is naptha. I have successfully cleaned dried (boot) edge dressing from the dashboard of my truck without destroying the painted surface of the dash pad using Ronsol lighter fluid. GO slow and let it do the work.  Nice guns. Thanks for posting

[TMerkley]

for me, 0000 steel wool and maybe turpentine and linseed oil... Just enough to break down the shellac and not dry out the oil finish underneath.... Just an idea.