Tapping the Rod

[hanshi]

I've noticed in most videos of muzzleloading shooters that about all of them seat the ball and then tap it a few times with the rod.  Most even drop the rod a few times down the bore after that.  How common is this practice and how many do it? 

[Skychief]

Hanshi, I can tell you that about half of my black powder buddies do it and half don't.  Hope that helps

Best regards, Skychief

[Daryl]

Dropping, or "Throwing" the rod onto the ball (3 times) was the military way of loading, by the numbers.  In the accuracy department, throwing the rod onto the powder was discouraged as it 'mealed" the powder (compressed and ground it up) thus changed it's burning characteristics - effecting accuracy.
The military did this to ensure the ball or bullet was on the powder even in a fouled barrel.
The Tige and Delvinge chamber's (Austrian and French) in the mid 1800's needed the rod used in this manner, to expand the undersized ball out into the rifling.
Some people still do this today - without knowing why - someone taught them to do this, obviously, while others do it as they are paranoid about getting the ball onto the powder and compressing it to the point the rod attempts to bounce out of the barrel. This ensures the ball is on the powder and that the powder is a single compressed pellet.
Some accuracy minded individuals seat the ball onto the powder and stop, using only enough pressure to get it there and no more, "lightly set".
Others seat the ball to a physical mark on the rod - every time, exactly to that spot and no more, no less.  As power fouling builds in the chamber area (for those who do not wipe), the mark will attempt to climb above the muzzle's edge, as the fouling builds, shot after shot.  Over a day's shooting of 50 or more shot, this could be as much as 1/4" higher.  Attempting to still seat to the mark under these circumstances will cause increasing powder compression along with mealing of the powder.

Any mealing of the powder will change powder burn rates and larger changes in velocity and pressure, shot to shot - unless this is done exactly the same, shot after shot.

When I seat the ball with the rifle's hickory rod, I seat it to the powder, then put the starter knob over the end of the starter, then one bump on the knob with my hand to firmly seat the ball on the powder. I do this the same each time - which shows up in my chronographed velocities as less than 15fps difference high to low for a string of shots. The close the shots are in speed, the greater the accuracy "potential".

I found that if the ball is lightly seated on the powder - (you can feel when the ball is on the powder) and no more, the chornographed results average 100fps lower than when I use the single compression hit of my hand on the starter knob which transmits this force to seat the ball firmly on the powder.  The difference (in rod height) is about 1/10" of compression, which, incidentally, the amount of compression most of us use when loading BP ctg. for our buffalo rifles.

This video shows my method of loading a VERY tight ball and patch. In this instance, I've fired over 50 shots on the trail that day, without ANY wiping & am using a .0225" patch and a .445" pure lead ball.  This was the last shot of the day, done for the video. The other fellow is Hatchet Jack, shooting his 20 bore smoothie - note - he throws the rod, I do not. He usually throws it 3 times, however I see he only did that twice this time.

Some have stated, under the right circumstances - ie: HOT, hot day, hot barrel, that throwing the rod onto the powder can cause a detonation or ignition of the compressing powder - that would be disastrous if it happened.

[Heavies]

This is a question that I've had too.  And thank you for the replies thus far in explaining it. 

I've seen how people do both methods.  I've been told when the rod bounces you know for sure the ball is on the powder.
However, depending on how the patch is waded up on the top of the ball, the rod may not bounce much.  Very hard to get consistency like that, IMHO.

I've also tried just seating on the powder and a slight push.  While better, I have seen some variation shot to shot.

I am liking the tap at the end of loading.  That looks like something that can be more consistently repeatable.  I would like to try that method next time I go out.

[smylee grouch]

There used to be a product called the Kadotie(sp) if I remember right. It addressed that technique with a sliding weight on your loading rod I think. You could adjust the amount of slide that it took and you slid the thing down on the load the same number of times each shot. Maybe some one else has used this gizmo and can elaborate more.

[Heavies]

There used to be a product called the Kadotie(sp) if I remember right. It addressed that technique with a sliding weight on your loading rod I think. You could adjust the amount of slide that it took and you slid the thing down on the load the same number of times each shot. Maybe some one else has used this gizmo and can elaborate more.

That's sounds like an interesting concept for a range rod. 

[smylee grouch]

I never had one nor seen one in use at any of the shoots I have been to. I don't think it sold as a range rod but sold as something you used on your rod. I have been to many NMLRA territorial and national matches and never seen one there or one in use. I would think if they were any good they would be more used. Like I said maybe someone else has some experience with them or seen them in action.

[Eddie Southgate]

Only on Minnie Balls . Twice as a rule  .

[Smoketown]

There used to be a product called the Kadotie(sp) if I remember right. It addressed that technique with a sliding weight on your loading rod I think. You could adjust the amount of slide that it took and you slid the thing down on the load the same number of times each shot. Maybe some one else has used this gizmo and can elaborate more.

That's sounds like an interesting concept for a range rod.

ww.muzzleblasts.com/archives/vol4no3/articles/mbo43-7.shtml

https://www.google.com/search?q=Kadooty&rlz=1C1RNPN_enUS411US491&oq=kadooty&aqs=chrome.0.69i59.3088j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Cheers,
Smoketown

[Bob Roller]

Dropping, or "Throwing" the rod onto the ball (3 times) was the military way of loading, by the numbers.  In the accuracy department, throwing the rod onto the powder was discouraged as it 'mealed" the powder (compressed and ground it up) thus changed it's burning characteristics - effecting accuracy.
The military did this to ensure the ball or bullet was on the powder even in a fouled barrel.
The Tige and Delvinge chamber's (Austrian and French) in the mid 1800's needed the rod used in this manner, to expand the undersized ball out into the rifling.
Some people still do this today - without knowing why - someone taught them to do this, obviously, while others do it as they are paranoid about getting the ball onto the powder and compressing it to the point the rod attempts to bounce out of the barrel. This ensures the ball is on the powder and that the powder is a single compressed pellet.
Some accuracy minded individuals seat the ball onto the powder and stop, using only enough pressure to get it there and no more, "lightly set".
Others seat the ball to a physical mark on the rod - every time, exactly to that spot and no more, no less.  As power fouling builds in the chamber area (for those who do not wipe), the mark will attempt to climb above the muzzle's edge, as the fouling builds, shot after shot.  Over a day's shooting of 50 or more shot, this could be as much as 1/4" higher.  Attempting to still seat to the mark under these circumstances will cause increasing powder compression along with mealing of the powder.

Any mealing of the powder will change powder burn rates and larger changes in velocity and pressure, shot to shot - unless this is done exactly the same, shot after shot.

When I seat the ball with the rifle's hickory rod, I seat it to the powder, then put the starter knob over the end of the starter, then one bump on the knob with my hand to firmly seat the ball on the powder. I do this the same each time - which shows up in my chronographed velocities as less than 15fps difference high to low for a string of shots. The close the shots are in speed, the greater the accuracy "potential".

I found that if the ball is lightly seated on the powder - (you can feel when the ball is on the powder) and no more, the chornographed results average 100fps lower than when I use the single compression hit of my hand on the starter knob which transmits this force to seat the ball firmly on the powder.  The difference (in rod height) is about 1/10" of compression, which, incidentally, the amount of compression most of us use when loading BP ctg. for our buffalo rifles.

This video shows my method of loading a VERY tight ball and patch. In this instance, I've fired over 50 shots on the trail that day, without ANY wiping & am using a .0225" patch and a .445" pure lead ball.  This was the last shot of the day, done for the video. The other fellow is Hatchet Jack, shooting his 20 bore smoothie - note - he throws the rod, I do not. He usually throws it 3 times, however I see he only did that twice this time.

Some have stated, under the right circumstances - ie: HOT, hot day, hot barrel, that throwing the rod onto the powder can cause a detonation or ignition of the compressing powder - that would be disastrous if it happened.

Back in the days when I was shooting a lot my main gun was a fine semi military Whitworth with an Alexander Henry barrel.
I loaded a 485 grain grease grooved bullet on top of 75 grains of DuPont 3fg and tapped the bullet lightly after seating it.
If I did my part,this rifle,shooting off a rest was capable of making 5 shot groups that looked like 3 or 4 shots at 100 yards.
It appears this loading method produced uniform results within my limits and those of the rifle. I used this rifle from October
of 1962 until July of 1973 when I sold it.It was the most satisfactory black powder rifle I ever owned. The next was an 1863
Sharps military rifle,a capping breech loader but that's another discussion.

Bob Roller

[Heavies]

There used to be a product called the Kadotie(sp) if I remember right. It addressed that technique with a sliding weight on your loading rod I think. You could adjust the amount of slide that it took and you slid the thing down on the load the same number of times each shot. Maybe some one else has used this gizmo and can elaborate more.

That's sounds like an interesting concept for a range rod.

ww.muzzleblasts.com/archives/vol4no3/articles/mbo43-7.shtml

https://www.google.com/search?q=Kadooty&rlz=1C1RNPN_enUS411US491&oq=kadooty&aqs=chrome.0.69i59.3088j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Cheers,
Smoketown

Thank you for the link, I was trying to picture exactly how that device would work.  I guess that would be great for extracting a stuck ball as well too, as long at the sections of rod didn't un-thread.

Don't know though, seems like that large of a weight would pack down the powder too much. ?

[EC121]

Years ago I think someone also sold an adjustable spring plunger that pushed on the rod.  You could adjust the pressure then push on the rod.  Same pressure each time.

[Hungry Horse]

I don't know where the slinging the ramrod down the bore got started, but for a while everybody was doing it. These were mostly the same folks that were blowing down their barrels, after every shot. I was one of them. I wore my Muzzle oblong throwing my ramrod down the barrel two or three times after loading every round, and so did a couple of my friends. An old bench shooter finally instructed me on how over compressing powder charges makes the accuracy hard to duplicate from shot to shot.
 As for detonation, I believe this happen more often when a load is rapidly rammed down the barrel in a single stroke, with a stiff range rod. If everything is just right, it works like a fire piston ignighting the patch.

  Hungry Horse

[Mauser06]

All of my buddies do it. 


One throws it down the bore numerous times pretty violently. 

I tried it...It doesn't bounce if the ball isn't seated...But can't help but to imagine the ball is getting mashed up and it's not consistent. 


Like was said, you can feel when you contact powder.  I load till I feel that and then attempt to apply the same pressure every time. Makes "sense" to me to try to load the same every time. From how you measure the charge to seat the ball. 

[hanshi]

Excellent responses.  I normally seat the prb just a few inches each stroke just for insurance against a breaking rod.  I'll seat the ball until I can feel a slight "crunch" so that I know it's on the powder.  Then, holding the rod with thumb and forefinger, I'll tap the ball a couple of times.  I've noticed that Hershel House, in a couple of videos,  taps and drops the rod on the ball as well.  I made a small "palm saver" out of antler that I sometimes use on the rod when many shots are being fired.  The 40 grain load in my .40 Lancaster has an sd of 15.

I've never heard of  documented case of BP exploding due to compression; from an ember, yes, but not simple compression.  Also, BP cannot "detonate"; BP isn't a high explosive.  It is a low explosive substance and the explosive force of BP is similar to flour dust.

I gather from the posts, then, that at least half the BP shooters do a "tap", a drop or some variation, there of, added to the simple rod seating.

[retired fella]

I confess, I'm a "swabber" after five shots.  Using a hickory range rod marked at no charge and fully charged.  This tells me exactly where I need to be and when I don't quite get to my charged mark I know it's time run a cleaning patch down the bore.  Seems to work for me.

[Daryl]

I don't know where the slinging the ramrod down the bore got started, but for a while everybody was doing it. These were mostly the same folks that were blowing down their barrels, after every shot. I was one of them. I wore my Muzzle oblong throwing my ramrod down the barrel two or three times after loading every round, and so did a couple of my friends. An old bench shooter finally instructed me on how over compressing powder charges makes the accuracy hard to duplicate from shot to shot.
 As for detonation, I believe this happen more often when a load is rapidly rammed down the barrel in a single stroke, with a stiff range rod. If everything is just right, it works like a fire piston ignighting the patch.

  Hungry Horse

Throwing the rod, as noted, was a military method of loading - going back to paper ctgs. and round balls, carrying into the Hollow Based 'Ball' era after the Tige and Delvinge

systems. It was to ensure the soldier firmly seated the ball or conical on the powder, regardless of the fouling in the bore.

Why people think it's a good idea or the right method today, is beyond me. Along with mealing (grinding/compressing) the powder, of course, is hammering, deforming of the ball.