Author Topic: Canoe Gun  (Read 24012 times)

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2017, 06:17:54 PM »
A guy I used to hang out with, was a sucker for "shootable antiques". He bought a Hollis percussion trade gun at a gun show that was in great shape, and was determined to shoot a buffalo with it. I told him if it were mine, I would disassemble it, and make sure nothing was blatantly wrong with it. He called a couple of weeks later, and asked if I would drop by, and look at his trade guns barrel. Under the forearm just ahead of where the rear thimble would be on a longrifle, was a brazed  up spot about an inch long. We have no way of knowing if this was an inclusion that was brazed up just in case, or an old failure that was repaired. The forearm showed no signs of damage, so I suspect this was done at the point of manufacture. This would make me believe that such practices might have been fairly common. Such repairs could easily make a three or four foot barrel a two foot barrel, if the repair failed.

 Hungry Horse

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2017, 06:32:01 PM »
I have seen quite a few brazed repairs/patches on old barrels. It doesn't seem they were so freaked out about that sort of thing back in the day.
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Offline Joe S.

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2017, 07:08:07 PM »
yes and when it blew up in your face in your canoe there was no lawyers around to sue Fred's çanoe and shoes shop cause he resoled a shoe or two he figured he could resole a gun barrel ;)

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2017, 07:23:56 PM »
   Mike it is just a word term that we use. Nothing more, nothing less. Where the term came from who knows. So to clarify it the barrel I had was probably from a European coach gun. According to the expert's that looked at it an the fellow who bought it. An besides it's still quick to handle in very thick swamps.  Mike

Offline wattlebuster

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2017, 07:31:15 PM »
The thickets I hunt a fellow finds a so called canoe gun very handy.
Nothing beats the feel of a handmade southern iron mounted flintlock on a cold frosty morning

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2017, 08:49:42 PM »
Back to good sources for information on original trade guns: unfortunately there are no books on trade guns that are great for the builder. 

Ryan Gale's For Trade and Treaty has lots of color pictures and lots of measurements, including things like barrel dimensions at the muzzle and mid-point as well as the breech, pin locations, and the like. Both it and the related book on trade rifles set a new standard for useful measurements, I think. I'd like to see some similar books published focused on 18th century eastern guns...
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline RAT

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2017, 12:31:23 AM »
The best book I have on the North West trade gun is "Trade Guns of the Hudson's Bay Company, 1670-1970" by S. James Gooding. It's available from Track of the Wolf.

The Museum of the Fur Trade also published a book on trade guns as part of their encyclopedia of the fur trade series. It's volume 1. It's good, but I don't think it was worth the price I paid for it.

Most of the short NW trade guns we see in museums today were shortened for hunting buffalo from horseback. The Indians put their old big bore trade guns to use for this special purpose after cartridge repeaters came out.
Bob

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2017, 01:03:54 AM »
Words mean things.

There are several good books on NW guns. I'm surprised more guys just starting out building don't build more of them. Unfortunately I have never come across any books on the canoe gun.... I wonder why not? I KNOW! BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T EXIST! ;)
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2017, 02:22:20 AM »
  Ok so I have never seen a Mike Brooks so does that mean you don't exist? Just messing with yeah!!  Remember book's don't lie but liars can print.....!  Oldtravler

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2017, 02:41:17 AM »
  Ok so I have never seen a Mike Brooks so does that mean you don't exist? Just messing with yeah!!  Remember book's don't lie but liars can print.....!  Oldtravler

I sent my doppelganger to the gunshow over the weekend so I may not actually exist. :o

In one of the books I have on trade guns it lists the numbers of guns  produced over a period of a couple hundred years and the length of the barrel. I believe it was HBC....?  Anyway, pre 1700 guns with  barrels as long as 4 1/2' to 5' were popular. By mid 1700's the most popular length was the 4'. from 1770's through 18oo the 4' barrel was still the favorite but the 3 1/2' and 3' barrels were not far behind. Past 1810 or 20 the 3' and 3 1/2' were popular. It wasn't until after that the 2 1/2' barrel was even offered.
 French trade guns always varied around 52" give or take an inch or two through their entire period.
 My point here being, if there were a demand for guns with 20" barrels the gun manufacturers would have been making them....... but, they weren't.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2017, 03:07:05 AM »
  It's ok we understand. Really!   Oldtravler

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2017, 03:11:24 AM »
  It's ok we understand. Really!   Oldtravler
Great. Then I expect to never see the word "canoe" on this forum ever again! ;)
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Smoketown

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2017, 03:26:53 AM »
  It's ok we understand. Really!   Oldtravler
Great. Then I expect to never see the word "canoe" on this forum ever again! ;)

Well then, how about a "double ended indigenous bark boat"?   ;D

Wasn't there a re-enactment posted in Muzzle Blasts a few months ago where an 'indigenous person' had the gunsmith 'at the fort' shorten the barrel on his gun?

Cheers,
Smoketown

Cheers,
Smoketown

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2017, 04:04:25 AM »
  It's ok we understand. Really!   Oldtravler
Great. Then I expect to never see the word "canoe" on this forum ever again! ;)

Well then, how about a "double ended indigenous bark boat"?   ;D

Wasn't there a re-enactment posted in Muzzle Blasts a few months ago where an 'indigenous person' had the gunsmith 'at the fort' shorten the barrel on his gun?

Cheers,
Smoketown

Cheers,
Smoketown
Well, in that case it must all be true then. ;)
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Smoketown

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2017, 04:58:54 AM »
  It's ok we understand. Really!   Oldtravler
Great. Then I expect to never see the word "canoe" on this forum ever again! ;)

Well then, how about a "double ended indigenous bark boat"?   ;D

Wasn't there a re-enactment posted in Muzzle Blasts a few months ago where an 'indigenous person' had the gunsmith 'at the fort' shorten the barrel on his gun?

Cheers,
Smoketown

Cheers,
Smoketown
Well, in that case it must all be true then. ;)

Mike,

I'm not saying if it's based on historical/hysterical fact or not but, there ARE a number of "short guns" to be found ... Some even in modern history.

"Blunderbuss", "Muff Guns", "Howdah Pistols", "Sheriff's models" and "Fitz Conversions" comes to mind.

And not forgetting the wonderfully bogus National Firearms Act of 1934 specifically prohibiting 'short barreled rifles and shotguns' all together.   ;)

Cheers,
Smoketown

fishlein

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2017, 06:40:33 AM »
Thanks for all the fun and info. Just for the record, I do often times hunt from a canoe and sometimes the paddle goes over board in the heat of the hunt. In that case I paddle with the gun stock to retrieve the paddle. So when I get around to building this short barreled gun, I will call it a "canoe paddle gun" to be politically correct and will send pictures to show it actually exists.

Thanks again - really!

BruceB

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2017, 06:48:45 AM »

Great. Then I expect to never see the word "canoe" on this forum ever again! ;)

Canoe  ;D

BruceB

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2017, 09:53:18 PM »

Great. Then I expect to never see the word "canoe" on this forum ever again! ;)

Canoe  ;D

Sorry Mr. Brooks, I couldn't resist. I understand your contempt for the term "canoe gun" since no such thing existed back in the day. As I understand it, the term comes from Jackie Brown who first offered such guns. Modern day collectors, users, writers etc. need a term to call the shortened trade gun. Sort of like "Old Model Ruger"Blackhawk. If you were to hop in the old time machine and walk in to a gun shop circa 1965, they'd have no idea what an Old Model was. There was just the Ruger Blackhawk.
  If you're a reenactor, then the non-existence of the canoe gun is a big deal. If you're a hunter who wants a short gun, then it's not so important.

War Eagle

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2018, 05:40:07 PM »
I think this discussion was laid to rest long ago, but for those who might still be a bit interested, I recently came across this Jackie Brown "Canoe Gun" at a private collection dispersal, in full Native American beaded regalia, and couldn't resist the heavily discounted price.  I don't believe the wrist is damaged, I think the well-done "repair" is just part of the dress-up.  But even if it is cracked/broken, I don't care.  It will likely spend it's time with me hanging on a wall. 



Offline AsMs

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2018, 02:48:10 AM »
Mike,

How about if the call it a Kayak Gun :o

AsMs

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2018, 08:09:03 PM »
My first trade gun was a scratch built chiefs grade, with a 30” barrel. I loved it. It was handy, and authentic. I never wanted one that was shorter. IMO, blanket guns, and canoe guns, are more stage props, than usable firearms. Besides you don’t have to deal with the HC crowd every time you drag it out. Just sayin’.

  Hungry Horse

Offline Daryl

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2018, 10:06:35 PM »
There are some pictures of very much shortened Indian guns in Firearms of the American West, but I believe are horse guns, not canoe guns. :o
Daryl

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Offline RonT

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2018, 10:25:08 PM »
"There are some pictures of very much shortened Indian guns "  Well, a sketch anyhow.  See Charles S. Hanson III "The Trade gun Sketchbook", pg. 47, third from top.  How it became short is worth speculation.
Cheers,
R
Spes Mea in Deo Est

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2018, 10:28:39 PM »
I believe many of these short guns came about after barrels ruptured, or were dented and made unusable. I know there are records indicating some guns were shortened for concealment during the Indian wars. But, I think they were in the minority.
 I also should point out that the shorter a muzzleloader gets, the easier it is to put yourself in danger loading them.

  Hungry Horse

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2018, 11:25:51 PM »
  H.H. you are correct on that you have to pay attention when loading but that's any fitearm. I have two very short guns. One is a plains style with a short 20 inch barrel percussion. The other is a flintlock trade gun style. Both have killed several deer. In a deer blind or stalking through a thick swamp they are deadly.
 At Fort Michlimacinac they have a very short Fowler possible Brown Bess on display.That the natives might have used in the Fort massacre. But none the less it was probably cut down for the attack.
  Here in the North it's nothing more than a term we use for short guns. No different than calling one a blanket gun.  Oldtravler